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Grinding Tanya's isn't that bug abuse?


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#1 Peachy

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 03:04 PM

Player Striker73 sends Tanya's into the cloning vat, yesterday i had a game with him https://xwis.net/ra2/games/19262/
I've turned my XGS on after i heard lots of Tanya's laughter under a gap generator, but i don't want him getting banned, only if he continue to do it after a warning from an admin, so can 1 of you guys send him a warning that is not allowed 



@ 1732 / 5061 he sends 4 Tanya's into the Cloning vat and later on a few more
 

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Edited by Peachy, 28 January 2016 - 03:06 PM.


#2 ZiGZaG

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 04:52 PM

Grinding units isn't considered bug abuse. 



#3 FOCUSVITA

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 04:59 PM

What does that do anyway ? more money ? or hearing tanya somewhat makes the other guy think he is so rich ?



#4 KeepCalmGen

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 05:58 PM

I think, grinding allied infantry (not all? maybe only tanya?), gives you the same amount of money as the unit costs. buy tanya for 500, sell for 1000.

 

Edit:

GI gives 150.

Spy 900

Tanya 1000

and chronoleg don't really want to get into the cloning vats...


Edited by KeepCalmGen, 28 January 2016 - 06:07 PM.


#5 Enj0y

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 06:50 PM

I offend wonder if Chrono Legionnaire that chrono there own base  is a bug?


Edited by Enj0y, 28 January 2016 - 07:01 PM.


#6 Seke

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 06:52 PM

IMHO should seriously be bug abuse.... This is way more clearly bug abuse than alting imo.

 

Spend X, recycle X, get Y, where Y > X. Yes, makes a lot of sense.



#7 Sustanon

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 07:03 PM

There's a simple solution: don't play with crates on.

XWIS recommends that crates be turned off for ranked games for good reasons.

Grinding infantry isn't bug abuse.

#8 Peachy

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 08:11 PM

There's a simple solution: don't play with crates on.

XWIS recommends that crates be turned off for ranked games for good reasons.

Grinding infantry isn't bug abuse.

It doesn't really matter in a 1vs1, it would take alot of time before that player can really make a big army, it's just i was playing around to much and let him build, and the chance of getting a diff faction mcv crate early on isn't so high 


Grinding units isn't considered bug abuse. 

Olaf said it is bug abuse, because it's basically a 'free money' generator (atleast in this old topic) http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/122050-in-ra2-is-tanya-cloning-for-money-legal-in-tourney/


What does that do anyway ? more money ? or hearing tanya somewhat makes the other guy think he is so rich ?

Infinity money capability, lots of MON-NEEH if you buy and send spies/tanya's into cloning vat

 


I think, grinding allied infantry (not all? maybe only tanya?), gives you the same amount of money as the unit costs. buy tanya for 500, sell for 1000.

 

Edit:

GI gives 150.

Spy 900

Tanya 1000

and chronoleg don't really want to get into the cloning vats...

That's correct


I offend wonder if Chrono Legionnaire that chrono there own base  is a bug?

What's the difference with other units like gi's/tanks etc, you have to press force fire button(CTRL) to do damage on your own building, unless you mean chrono your Chronosphere is a bug abuse/glich, because you can use it each time without charging it

 

IMHO should seriously be bug abuse.... This is way more clearly bug abuse than alting imo.

 

Spend X, recycle X, get Y, where Y > X. Yes, makes a lot of sense.

Only in 2vs2 FFG it would be a pain in the a$$ if it is a camping game, but yeah i agree with you


Edited by Peachy, 28 January 2016 - 08:11 PM.


#9 ZiGZaG

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 10:48 PM

Olaf said it is bug abuse, because it's basically a 'free money' generator (atleast in this old topic) http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/122050-in-ra2-is-tanya-cloning-for-money-legal-in-tourney/

 

Where does he say its bug abuse? I think toomuch4u even says its legal on XWIS.

 

The reason its not considered bug abuse/bannable is when you order a unit into the cloning vat the cursor changes when you hover over the cloning vat's, if units where not supposed to be able to enter it then it wouldn't happen. Its not a glitch, its not a bug, its clearly designed this way.

 

The money factor from grinding spies isnt ideal but how often do you come up against a situation like this?

 

It would be ridiculous to enforce a rule saying you can grind some units but not other's.



#10 Peachy

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 11:15 PM

OK :locked: , thanks for clearing that up



#11 Seke

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 02:20 AM

Olaf said it is bug abuse, because it's basically a 'free money' generator (atleast in this old topic) http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/122050-in-ra2-is-tanya-cloning-for-money-legal-in-tourney/

 

Where does he say its bug abuse? I think toomuch4u even says its legal on XWIS.

 

1. The reason its not considered bug abuse/bannable is when you order a unit into the cloning vat the cursor changes when you hover over the cloning vat's, if units where not supposed to be able to enter it then it wouldn't happen. Its not a glitch, its not a bug, its clearly designed this way.

 

2. The money factor from grinding spies isnt ideal but how often do you come up against a situation like this?

 

3. It would be ridiculous to enforce a rule saying you can grind some units but not other's.

 

1. Cursor changes when I hold down alt and click your WF too. I also think that argument is invalid because even if it was intentional, the developer's are obviously idiots and this was CLEARLY a mistake. It's a logical fallacy and when discussing whether or not planes should be able to be fixed on a depot, a counterargument was that the same mechanic can be used on a naval yard to fix the plane and that was illogical and was held as proof for it not being intentional.

 

2. Frequency shouldn't play a roll in whether something should be considered against the rules or not.

 

3. No..... it wouldn't.

 

Let's be honest, the only real reason it's not considered bug abuse and it's not enforced is because in the past it can only happen really in unranked games or games with crates. However, now we are enforcing all rules in FFG, and therefore stances on things like this that would inevitably create more work for admins, but less bug abuse would still create a fairer playing environment, which I would imagine is one of the goals of XWIS.

 

I've had sooooooooooooo many games ruined by this bug. If you ask the community I'd guarantee that the overwhelming majority would consider it bug abuse or, if properly worded, would at least say the mechanic was mal-designed. 


Edited by Seke, 29 January 2016 - 02:22 AM.


#12 Enj0y

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 02:23 AM

 


What's the difference with other units like gi's/tanks etc, you have to press force fire button(CTRL) to do damage on your own building, unless you mean chrono your Chronosphere is a bug abuse/glich, because you can use it each time without charging it
 

The difference is if you force a tank to shoot another tank  it is only to kill it as a drone in it.

 

Why would you want to damage your own building  :no:

 

Chrono your own building to make it untouchable so it wont get damage is different, using a  Chrono legionnaire


Edited by Enj0y, 29 January 2016 - 02:27 AM.


#13 FReQuEnZy

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 01:58 PM

Olaf said it is bug abuse, because it's basically a 'free money' generator (atleast in this old topic) http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/122050-in-ra2-is-tanya-cloning-for-money-legal-in-tourney/

 

Where does he say its bug abuse? I think toomuch4u even says its legal on XWIS.

 

The reason its not considered bug abuse/bannable is when you order a unit into the cloning vat the cursor changes when you hover over the cloning vat's, if units where not supposed to be able to enter it then it wouldn't happen. Its not a glitch, its not a bug, its clearly designed this way.

 

The money factor from grinding spies isnt ideal but how often do you come up against a situation like this?

 

It would be ridiculous to enforce a rule saying you can grind some units but not other's.

 

This reasoning is absurd, you need to look at rules.ini to actually comprehend the logic behind this bug.

It's got nothing to do with cursors or actually being able to sell units.

 

The soylent values for Tanya and the Spy are the same as their original buy value, which should be half of the buy value as all of the other units.

Due to the fact that you get a free copy of a unit with a cloning vats, you will be able to sell the copy and the originally trained unit for the same value that you spent training one, thus you get a double return.

 

It wouldn't be ridicolous to enforce a rule saying that you can't grind more than, let's say, 2 Tanyas dring the game.

In no competitive match will it be worth to grind more than 2 Tanyas or spies. That kind of circumstances just don't come up so often.

 

In a sense you're offering a clear advantage to some one who manages to steal an MCV.



#14 Sustanon

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 03:17 PM

The soylent values for Tanya and the Spy are the same as their original buy value, which should be half of the buy value as all of the other units.

Not true. It's less for the Spy.

Cloning and grinding Tanyas makes more money faster, but is more noticeable.

 

Due to the fact that you get a free copy of a unit with a cloning vats, you will be able to sell the copy and the originally trained unit for the same value that you spent training one, thus you get a double return.

In a sense you're offering a clear advantage to some one who manages to steal an MCV.

Soviets are not supposed to have an allied MCV and likewise allied is not supposed to have a soviet MCV in the first place.

Soviets in RA2 can legitimately capture a Tanya with a Yuri and grind her for 1000 $ :) capturing a Spy is somewhat easier since he's unarmed and hence it gives a bit less.

If you're dumb enough to let your opponent steal your MCV and don't stop him from making double tech, well then that's your problem. Besides, this literally never happens in any competitive match (QM), at least, it's never happened to me. If you play with crates enabled, then you have no room for such complaints.

If anything, allied infantry shouldn't be clone-able, because, as every good player knows, allied units are a lot better than their soviet counterparts (you're not quite there if you don't know this).

Nothing else.

Edited by Sustanon, 29 January 2016 - 03:22 PM.


#15 ZiGZaG

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 04:43 PM

1. Cursor changes when I hold down alt and click your WF too. I also think that argument is invalid because even if it was intentional, the developer's are obviously idiots and this was CLEARLY a mistake. It's a logical fallacy and when discussing whether or not planes should be able to be fixed on a depot, a counterargument was that the same mechanic can be used on a naval yard to fix the plane and that was illogical and was held as proof for it not being intentional.

 

2. Frequency shouldn't play a roll in whether something should be considered against the rules or not.

 

3. No..... it wouldn't.

 

Let's be honest, the only real reason it's not considered bug abuse and it's not enforced is because in the past it can only happen really in unranked games or games with crates. However, now we are enforcing all rules in FFG, and therefore stances on things like this that would inevitably create more work for admins, but less bug abuse would still create a fairer playing environment, which I would imagine is one of the goals of XWIS.

 

I've had sooooooooooooo many games ruined by this bug. If you ask the community I'd guarantee that the overwhelming majority would consider it bug abuse or, if properly worded, would at least say the mechanic was mal-designed. 

I didnt say it was designed well. But it is what it is, your right in a sense though, this wasnt enforced in the past for the reasons you state and other's. But given the level of evidence available now it probably could be if that's something the community wanted.  



#16 FReQuEnZy

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 06:27 PM

It would be simple to prove an offender with a XGS replay. 

 

I'd say to move towards adding it to the list of bugs that shouldn't be abused along with waypoint engi/spy.




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