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#1 alfahed

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:53 PM

Official: Alt-scouting is NOT cheating on Tiberian Sun

July 6, 2013

Ever since Strike-Team / XWIS took over the Tiberian Sun servers it’s been assumed that alt-scouting is cheating under XWIS rules. How this came about is unclear, though it seems likely there has been a case of crossed-wires over the years with many of the early admins assuming that Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2 are essentially the same game – that a rule for one should apply to the other.

However, following a rather discussion in the Strike-Team staff section I can officially announce that alt-scouting on Tiberian Sun is not cheating. Though some players may consider it a ‘cheap’ tactic, the alt function is now once again a legitimate form of scouting.

What does this mean for TS?

On a practical level, the reinstatement of alt-scouting won’t change the game at all – well, not for Terrace players at least. On larger maps, and mod maps however, I think there will be a subtle shift.

Back when Firestorm was popular, alt-scouting was used quite regularly, especially by Nod players who lack GDI’s more accessible and diverse scouting options. Experience tells us that while some players won’t change their mind to encompass alt-scouting (after all, some players still think Cyborgs are the only choice), on the larger maps and mod maps especially I foresee some of the more canny players opting for an early alt-scout to open the opposite team more swiftly. This in turn should then impact upon the build meta of players, especially those playing Giants of War (GOW) who will be forced to make a decision on how many SAMs to build early on to counter this scout. While I see this as being ultimately a good thing to encourage a lot more diversity in Giants of War (GOW) games, the cynic in me tells me that any use of alt-scouting will lead to someone calling foul-play. At the very least it will see ‘no alt’ added to the long list of rules that some players like to impose upon other players.

To many of us older, more ‘veteran’ players, TS should be a game without rules. As long as you don’t cheat (no trainers), and don’t exploit obvious  bugs and glitches (infinite FS for example) then you should be free to use whatever strategy you like. As such this new clarity from Strike-Team is a positive thing in my mind. It’s just a shame that it’s come a little shock to others.

 

Source

http://cnctiberiansun.wordpress.com/2013/07/06/official-alt-scouting-is-not-cheating-on-tiberian-sun/

 

I'm not the author, check the source for reference!



#2 Mole40k

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:08 PM

Source = me. Yes it's true, and thanks for quoting my blog :-). Alting is allowed. It seems that basically all this time we thought xwis rules were against alt, it was because someone thought that 'alting' on TS was the same as 'alting' on Ra2. Confirmed in staff section and with Olaf. Feel free to alt scout away. 



#3 angelcry

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:14 PM

so we dont even need to scout anymore?


- _ - and in ff 8r games i can just alt away? sounds dumb. rule should be diff, most always on ts alt has been considered unfair



#4 fir3w0rx

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:53 AM

What's an ALT scout?

#5 MrFrodo

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:38 AM

What's an ALT scout?


Hmmm... you make a helipad for instance, and CTRL+ALT it(the pad) to a specified unscouted area, then you make a flying unit which will go directly in the "specified" unscouted area.
Also with a war factor you can CTRL+ALT to an unscouted area and then make a subterranean(underground) unit, it will then leave your base and pop up in any desirable region on the map. (obviously you would want to go in an unscouted region since you wanna scout)

Alt scouts are can be costly if the enemy has decent defense already up and running.

Mole40k, the English major might be able to explain better

Edited by MrFrodo, 28 July 2013 - 03:49 AM.


#6 fir3w0rx

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:40 AM

Hmmm... you make a helipad for instance, and CTRL+ALT it(the pad) to a specified unscouted area, then you make a flying unit which will go directly in the "specified" unscouted area.
Also with a war factor you can CTRL+ALT to an unscouted area and then make a subterranean(underground) unit, it will then leave your base and pop up in any desirable region on the map. (obviously you would want to go in an unscouted region since you wanna scout)

Alt scouts are can be costly if the enemy has decent defense already up and running.

Mole40k, the English major might be able to explain better

Ok, I understand, but what I don't get is why this would be frowned upon?

#7 MrFrodo

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:41 AM


I dont know. But from what I understand, after WOL when XWIS took over THEBIL(STRiteree) made rules in which 'Alting' was considered cheating.

Now Since Mole40k has become part of ST Admin they have revised rules, which restore the default WOL rules on TS. Is that right, Sean3z? Mole40k?

Alting is considered too easy of a scout, kinda like a cheap tactic, but many players dont really care. And there is alot of mappers on TS which might use it to their advantage I think.

Edited by MrFrodo, 28 July 2013 - 06:42 AM.


#8 stOwned

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:44 AM

Everyone knows me as the alt scouter :) Nice to see correct rules in place. Gj!



#9 Mole40k

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 07:45 AM

Forgive me for poor spelling as I'm typing this on my phone...

1. It's not ctrl+alt - you only need to use the alt button.

2. This isnt a rules revision as such - more just clarity. There's been a lot of discussion in ST about prooving how ra2 players are exploiting the alt glitch. From the resulting conversation and me raising some questions with Olaf and other admins it would seem that alt scouting on TS was *never* a bug exploit / cheat. As we all know in the early days of xwis TS had no admin representative. From what I can gather basically we seem to have had a case of 'Chinese whispers' or confusion along the way where it's been assumed thay a rule for ra2 is the same in TS where in actual fact alt scout is a completely different thing.

#10 miketehmaster

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

Planes aren't meant to go in shroud, neither is sub units, thats why you can't use them there normally, thats my logic, i dont care if im scouted using alt though, most good players are scouted way before than



#11 MaYwEaThErDaZ

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

It's too cheap to be a legal move on ts :(



#12 Casablanca

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:39 PM

Its always been allowed...just considered cheap

 

Dach's used to do it all the time in 1v1's



#13 tommyt1

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 04:59 PM

Surely using ALT as a scout will simply eliminate the battle to scout ur opponent , this means GDI will lose its early scout advantage with the JJ , me being a nod player I shouldn't complain because if this becomes 'legal' to alt in games surely this puts GDI at a disadvantage, I always find if a GDI is scouted early he's a lot easier to beat and a lot easier to hold his first attack due to the fact you know when its coming and you know what's coming next. I don't think it makes too much difference nod vs nod but I definitely feel this will play into nods hands vs GDI . I don't like it being honest, maybe on the smaller maps where inf rushes work it might not make too much difference but on a larger map it will surely be an advantage to nod , cheers Tomo 



#14 F0odLi0n

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:41 PM

I don't think it will make a difference when it's nod vs gdi. Sure you might be able to scout me sooner, but the cost to your defence and sams leave you open to a 1 ref disr. Some modders can't multi task with flying an air unit around and still keep building. 
 
It will however make games more interesting unless people just rage quit when an alt scout starts like they do now


#15 Mole40k

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:31 PM

Don't forget as well that alt scouting is in a straight line from your base, so the person you are scouting can be prepared for it. As you say it can also sometimes work to a scouting player's disadvantage due to cost and if you do it as part of a 1-ref strategy, then you are basically sign-posting what you are about to do, so it definitely has pro and cons. . 



#16 kaboom4u

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:54 AM

alt scouting just welcomes various other problems. id say dont do it. its a bug in the game, it was not intended and shouldve been fixed after the 2.03 patch. its like the emp glitch, part of the game, but well known to be unfair

 

alt scouting makes regular scouting and such pretty much useless, and therefor changes the dynamic of the game, especially when you think about forest fires 6-8 games.



#17 zosimos

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:27 AM

tm get bridge?

 

no, alt scouting is allowed.



#18 kaboom4u

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:01 AM

bridge is more part of destroying it so many inf dont get over, however we all know how important it is to have map awareness and keep an eye out for jjs, and knowing where to place anti air. all of that goes out the window when you enable alt scouting, and dumbs down the game.



#19 miketehmaster

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:59 PM

u cant rele go into shroud with subs or planes, only like 1 half centimeter per click... if u sit there for awhile u can do it, but u waste time.. idk, idc, scouting isnt a win or loss problem. u win some u lose some



#20 elitegi10

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:18 PM

I agree with Mike - planes and subs are not meant to go into shroud. It's in their coding:

 

MoveToShroud=no

 

It's there in black and white. Planes and subs have been coded so that they CANNOT directly scout in shrouded areas. Using a simple glitch to bypass this, is in my opinion, no different to glitching EMP or Firewall.

 

And it won't change anything in GOW games. Engs are perfectly legal (of course) but they are banned in GOW and most mod games.

 

Maybe it's just me though. I won't even blow blue tib to get a win, because I think it's unsporting ;)



#21 MrFrodo

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:07 AM

u cant rele go into shroud with subs or planes, only like 1 half centimeter per click... if u sit there for awhile u can do it, but u waste time.. idk, idc, scouting isnt a win or loss problem. u win some u lose some

I agree with Mike - planes and subs are not meant to go into shroud. It's in their coding:
 
MoveToShroud=no
 
It's there in black and white. Planes and subs have been coded so that they CANNOT directly scout in shrouded areas. Using a simple glitch to bypass this, is in my opinion, no different to glitching EMP or Firewall.
 
And it won't change anything in GOW games. Engs are perfectly legal (of course) but they are banned in GOW and most mod games.
 
Maybe it's just me though. I won't even blow blue tib to get a win, because I think it's unsporting ;)


So before XWIS, in WOL days did people use ALT scouts?

Edited by MrFrodo, 30 July 2013 - 12:08 AM.


#22 stOwned

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:58 AM

yes,mainly pro's used it in 1 vs 1's back in wol days johnson n whoever resorts to alt scouting in a 6er or 8er should get smacked. tomo's clueless!


Edited by stOwned, 30 July 2013 - 03:09 PM.


#23 Casablanca

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:54 AM

Id rather have every game consist of alt scouting, than playing in noob rooms where using engs (nods best attack) is the thing thats considered cheating...

 

learn to play.



#24 Orochi

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:10 PM

alt scouting was allowed and frequently used back before xwis, then when it became the primary server for ts it became illegal. it's $1000 for a plane to send straight in to scout; if it dies, you lose 1k, if it doesn't, the risk was worth the reward. it's not a cheat, but it was looked down upon by a lot of players pre-xwis.



#25 hefeweize

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:36 PM

I disagree.

 

 Alt scouting should be illegal for use in FFA and tournament style games. I feel it is a lazy way of scouting. I dont think the developers of tiberian sun intended this as a scout as well.  Campaign missions rely on cloaked bases making the strategist find other ways of conquering. I believe it is a glitch. This reminds me of the build anywhere glitch which was also not intended as well.

 

People will be more compelled to start scouting this way resulting in shorter and faster games. The ingenuity of blocking all points of access to your base is what makes the game fun. Some people need the extra few minutes to prepare their base while others struggle for a complete scout.

 

Mole suggested that you would spend $1000 on a scout with a forced scout. I can guarantee you that you will spend 3x that amount getting a descent scout without the use of force scout. Alt scouting wasn't accepted during the WW/Ton2 days. I promise you!

Force scout cheap move nonetheless. Killing blue tib is totally acceptable but cheap (but this was intended from developers) 

 

This changes everything. FFA 8ers won't be the same.


Edited by hefeweize, 30 July 2013 - 07:39 PM.



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