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#1 offline

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 01:14 AM

ok i just wanna know how exactly to stop mans rush and engi rush, what to do without ruining my eco any idea?

#2 Mole40k

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 06:27 PM

Are you playing as nod or gdi?

If nod, use lasers, build infantry, use harvesters to squash inf (using the alt button to force move, but only do it over small distances otherwise the pathing messes up).

If gdi, use infantry, titans + harvs to squish infantry, bombers (if you are teched) etc etc

Best counter to rushes is always to know they're coming so you can prepare a cuonter. This requires good scouting and awareness of what's going on around you.

#3 phatmouse

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:19 PM

If you are two-refinery disruptor rushing and see your opponent man rushing you then cancel a harvester and sell a refinery while you build straight to tech assuming your usual build order is power>rax>ref>ref>war (2 harvs) >radar>pad>tech>service depot>carryall>disrupter

The key thing is to anticipate the man rush and when it comes to you have an army of equal strength or if lesser, trap your opponent and use harvesters to squash their men. if you build 1 harv and sell a refinery, along with radar tech and depot, you should have enough men and resources to defend the rush while launching an initiative yourself.

and for engineer rushes, again anticipation is key so scouting your enemy fast is always important. if you do see he is apc + engineer rushing, usually 1 rpg and some disk men is good enough to kill it if you are gdi and lasers and light infantry with nod. you don't want to spend too much time and money defending a rush, instead you should aim to capitalize on the situation and aim to get ahead of your opponent.

#4 Urab17ch

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 12:31 PM

ill write for GDI as my nod is fairly mediocre:

yea the key thing with defending infantry rushes is to actually gauge the size of it as early as possible, so SCOUTING the map, as well as their base is geatly important. As a general rule of thumb, if you dont have enough infantry yourself dont ruin your economy or building order by buying loads more infantry (which could possibly die anyway), instead buy a titan or use a harvester to walk over their infantry. not only will you squish them, but you redirect their fire onto your squishing unti, meaning your remaining infs can attack theirs while theirs shoots at ur squishing unit. the key to squishing is to click small distances at a time, and if u hold 'alt' at the same time it makes it more efficient and accurate, and u can click on an enemy inf while holding alt it will walk directly onto that inf. the more you practice it the better ull find urself getting. test yourself by playing some 1v1 and purposely not building enough infantry to defend with, and try using units to squish. you can also hold down 'Q' while squishing and clicking to give it a string of commands. eg if you hold q and click on 5 infantry independently, it will try and squish them in the order you clicked them.

as fo engineers in subs, it's always best to have an rpg or two in your main base because players have a tendency to pop up and move around underground for a while, given the chance, until they believe ur not looking or leave a building open and then they will take it. building an rpg prevent them popping up and not deploying, so ull know if they come to pop up while uve got rpgs, it wont be a fake pop up and dive back down. infatry and disc throwers are obvious important, but the best thing to get is a bomber, and try and bomb the engineers when they pop up in the sub. i often find the best way is to force fire just beyond where the sub pops up, because often ull click on one engineer or the sub to bomb and itll die or enter the building before the others and ur bomber will cease to act. force firing just beyond the engineers will eradicate this problem.

fundamentally, you dont wanna waste alot defending one rush, as you can sell the building and foil their attack. you really want to be working out how you can utilise their attack for a counter attack, or work out how little there attack wld affect you if it was to be successful, ie can you put together a decent effective enough counter attack? hope that helps.

Edited by Urab17ch, 28 February 2010 - 12:35 PM.


#5 FReQuEnZy

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 10:40 PM

Wouldnt it be better to go ref war (2 miners) ref ref and miner control when u run low.

#6 jZampageX

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:19 AM

Wouldnt it be better to go ref war (2 miners) ref ref and miner control when u run low.


First off, always micro manage your harvs. TS harvs are notorious for being morons. If you don't tell them to eat the closest tib, they eat in a straight line further and further away.

Secondly, a ref > war > 2 harvs BO is generally only utilized for 1 ref disruptor rushing (not recommended) or some people do an economy BO like that where they then go back into more refs. The problem with this, is that you have very little $$$ for scouts, or anti-scouts, and often times find yourself out of cash altogether. A more recommended path is honestly going 3-4, maybe even 5 ref. If you're going into 4/5 reffing, you most certainly should be sending out infs with that, soon after your 3rd ref begins or finishes, simply because your opponent has enough time to be teched and have a bomber by the time your 4th or 5th ref is finished.

Hope this helps!

#7 Urab17ch

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 01:58 PM

i see what you mean insomniac, but going 2 ref warf is almost useless. if you are going to 2 ref, to get the money faster you are going to have to ref, warf (2 harvesters), ref into tech. this allows you to have your 4 harvs and 2 refs faster than if you did 2 refs warf then to tech or more refs. usually by the time ur radar is built the opposition will have infantry in you if they are infantry rushing (if they are average or above) and you can then use one of your 4 harvs to squish, and i usually buy 2 titans too (if you control your harvs well enough). then rush them with a disruptor (some people make 2 but i prefer to use 1, hang around their base if theyve gone defense and then build another harvester or 2 and another ref and start expanding. the threeat of your disr outside their base will force them to 1. not be able to send their defensive units as an attack while you concentrate on getting your economy strong, and 2. force them to go straight to tech to attempt to put you under pressure. either way it gives you about a minute at least 2 get stronger than them, and you have an attack waiting.) DONT just send your disr in unless you are certain you will slow them down. otherwise you will die. dont ever waste ur rush if u 2 ref otherwise unless you are very very good or the opponent is rubbish you will eventually die.

#8 phatmouse

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:02 PM

ref war ref (apc scout+ 1 miner) is a great rushing BO because it combines micro with speed and as a result, can throw your opponent off with a super fast disruptor rush. there are several drawbacks however,
since this is a rushing build, you generally won't spend too much on anti scouts and that is why you use an apc to scout and hopefully slow down your opponents man rush. the goal is to tech before the man rush gets to you otherwise you will be put in a position where you will have to defend a very large infantry rush with very little resources, but, if your control is fast, then that is a great build to go.

I was offering the ref ref warf 2 harvs to tech variation because i find it more solid economically for a new player to adjust too while still being able to cancel a harvester, and sell a refinery if you your opponent man rushes u and still tech on time for your disruptor rush, but hey do whatever you want -_-

#9 Urab17ch

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:53 PM

ye i agree its a 'safer' 2 ref bo, but the idea of 2 ref rushing is to be faster than your opponent so why play with a negative mindset

#10 phatmouse

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:19 PM

true Brendan, as we both know, rushing is not what wins the majority of games in TS.

you have to develop a "long game" and for that you need to think economically.

Edited by phatmouse, 04 March 2010 - 07:20 PM.


#11 jZampageX

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:50 AM

Only thing rushing does really early on is help develop yourself a decent economy by slowing your opponent slightly, or getting a very lucky KO (knock out) on them.

#12 Urab17ch

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 12:59 PM

precisely, so why would you want to cancel a harv to defend an inf rush if ur rushing? it will completely eradicate the point of you rushing, and to revert suddenly to economy is almost a death trap too because the opponent infing you will no doubt have 1) a better economy than you are trying to attain and, 2) they might eco to tech which wld put you miles behind.

i agree you need to think beyond the rush in every game, but if you are rushing, dont hold back. to change your bo mid way through rushing vs a decent player is death

#13 jZampageX

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:34 PM

That's exactly right, unless of course your death is imminent unless you do something, i.e. they have a diss and you are diss rushing, I would recommend making 1 sam and 2-3 tits with an eng :)

#14 phatmouse

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:43 PM

precisely, so why would you want to cancel a harv to defend an inf rush if ur rushing? it will completely eradicate the point of you rushing, and to revert suddenly to economy is almost a death trap too because the opponent infing you will no doubt have 1) a better economy than you are trying to attain and, 2) they might eco to tech which wld put you miles behind.

i agree you need to think beyond the rush in every game, but if you are rushing, dont hold back. to change your bo mid way through rushing vs a decent player is death




well because you want to be fast about it, the whole point of rushing is to slow your opponent while you build up a decent economy, sometimes making 1 harv instead of 2 will save you $1500 so you can still be fast while rushing and still defend the infantry rush.

I usually don't make many infantry when I am 2 reffing from top spot and will always strive to get 2 harvs out my warf before the rush, but say if BL decides to go fast big inf, i will cancel that harv and make some more inf, maybe a titan, but I will always keep building to tech. although you sacrifice a harvester, you make up for it with speed and rushing and if you can slow your opponent this will give you time to make more refineries and that harvester again (after the disr) but then again this is a more complex way of attacking while defending and requires very precise control.

#15 phatmouse

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:01 PM

you could always go straight into long every game but good players will eventually pick up on that and l take advantage of it.

#16 jZampageX

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 10:03 AM

I've noticed going 4 ref into medium inf, for pure defense of inf itself, and you can pump more if needed, into war, 2 harvs, another ref, and pumping tits into tech diss mk bombers is pretty failsafe - with a BO like that, it honestly comes down to usually who is the best long game player, and who has a decent mate. Of course, that BO I use is purely situational... if I see someone is going diss, I will stop a ref and a harv pump tits and make a radar for a sam or 2. Once I do that, I'll continue my economy.

The #1 thing players need to learn, is this isn't 1999 or 2003 anymore... economy is everything - expansion quickly is key, and bombers > titans... sure titans are uber defense... but bombers are just as good defense, but also offense, and quite frankly if your opponent is pumping titans, it only takes 2 bombers to take out a whole set of titans, or 4 using 1 bomb for the same effect... conclusion: pump an equal balance of bombs and titans, but know - bombers win, you don't have to send them into their base with 1000 sams... let them keep wasting cash sending them to you, and bomb their HARVS in the tib fields... might sound dumb, but trust me, it is soooo effective and soooo little players utilize disabling another persons economy... people only think an MK is allowed to do it... an MK and bombers on harvs = fail safe win method if you have any micro control and a well developed long game.

Playing with elites is a whole nother story... there is only a select few out there that can pull a win out of their **** where this advice doesn't really apply... at that stage, you should do your best to learn from them.

Point is - you should look to play every game for fun, but also for knowledge - if you try hard enough, you can always be expanding your game play, whether it be something as minimalistic as knowing when to send inf, or how to power bomb a UNIT, most people think it's only effective for buildings... wrong.

Any questions on ^^^ feel free to ask and I'll elaborate.

#17 Orochi

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 12:49 AM

bombers are just as good as titans. depends on the player and how they utilize their units. the only way a rush will be better than an econ is if the rush slows them badly or they bunk so much its ridiculous and the rusher can recover, which will go into long unless ur dlte and can keep rushing and eventually kill someone which nobody now knows how to do well enough.

#18 Urab17ch

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 12:32 PM

bombers are far more effective than titans. they can attack faster, and more buildings/units at a time, aswell as having the capability of d when u have a huge base to defend with no d (when ur pressuring).

if i was to have 4 bombs with 4 pads vs constant 4 titans at me in waves i know which id choose

#19 jZampageX

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 10:40 PM

Exactly my point, well spoken Urab.

#20 phatmouse

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Posted 08 March 2010 - 11:37 PM

if i was to have 4 bombs with 4 pads vs constant 4 titans at me in waves i know which id choose


in that scenario the bombers, of course, but if the opposition is tricky, they will most likely gather more titans and add additional support such as a MK and a few disruptors.

i have always found controlling the ground more important then protecting the skies mainly because generally, bombers take more time to recharge while titans and MK on the other hand can theoretically attack forever.

don't get me wrong, i love using bombers, but they don't win the majority of my games.

Edited by phatmouse, 08 March 2010 - 11:43 PM.


#21 Orochi

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 02:38 AM

the more bombers you have the more attention you must pay to them and the more pads you must make, plus they take time to reload and if ur opponent knows what they are doing they arent as effective in middle vs 100000 sams/fs. like i said it depends on the player and how they use their units.

#22 Urab17ch

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:04 PM

in my scenario i only stated the bomb v titan battle, the person with the bombs wld in no doubt also have an mk and sams, and more than probably an emp plus a spare. this is all theoretical, but so is rays post.

and from my experience, bombs are very effective, and the reson they dont win 'the majority of games' is because its far easier and 'safe' to pump titans, so stacking bombs offensively is rarely seen

#23 jZampageX

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:01 AM

Just messing around recently, I've noticed an extremely effective long game strategy. Sometimes I forfeit the middle with a clear chance of winning it, simply because of testing this strat, and that is - stop all production of ground units, bunk about 2-3 tib patches with about 15+ pads in main with massive bombers. I don't care if they have firestorm or massive sams, I'll build an mk and keep pumping bombs and pads and literally farm every harv on the map. People get SO **** off they literally leave without even giving it an effort. In fact, I'd like to think of it more my signature then anything else at this point, it's my strength currently, as my knowledge of the game is still sub-standard of some players as we are ALWAYS learning still... but my control helps for any lack of knowledge I might have versus my opponent 'usually', with the exception of some of the really well rounded players... Kapa for instance will steam roll you for any mistake.

#24 Inacurate

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:01 PM

The offensive on economy relies on your opponent not doing the simple thing and expanding into the fields. Sure, those bombers are great, but when AA defense is absolute, what are you going to do then? You have a lot of money invested in paperweights until you have enough of them and are willing to sacrifice some to complete an objective OR are able to setup a forward EMP base.

As an old school player who won a majority(99% easy) of my games without rushing, I am chuckling at everything being said in here right now. I had two or three build orders, ever. :) Build orders are great if you want to memorize what you are doing, but beyond that you have to adapt to what the enemy is doing and not set your path in stone. As has been touched off in here slightly, committing yourself to a rush 100% means, if you are playing an average player who can capitalize, if your rush fails or they have contingency plans, you will more than likely lose.

You never want to commit until you are sure. Until such time, leave your options open and look to capitalize yourself. ;)

Inac

#25 Urab17ch

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Posted 13 March 2010 - 05:21 PM

I like the way you put things inac, especially in the first paragraph. i remember you when you came back to cncgamer :D it's pretty much accepted nowadays though that to win a game vs someone of an above average ability, you will have to sacrifice units (often all of the ones which your using to complete the objective), but the mentality of 'safely' killing your opponent has been integral in ts in the past 3 or 4 years at least. you expect the opponent to counter with all he has if he dies, or if not have a recovery plan which won't slow them down, often in combination with an effective counter as you are able to anticipate when your opponent is going to attempt to KO you.

also, it's nice hearing about a 'long game' mentality coming from a genuine old school player, and being able to adapt to the given situation, often having to completely alter your building style and forethought. thinking about it, in certain spots on certain maps there are only like 2-3 BO's i regularly use (often without thinking as they have been trained into my clicking habit subconsciously), as the likelyhood is they will prevail for me


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