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#26 reano

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:32 PM

I wouldn't be so quick to say you no more than me, but if that rocks your boat.


I guess they test trains.




Just being realistic and answering the OP's question at the same time.


Hope your not one of those grammar police as there are plenty of mistakes in my threads to keep you happy for years ;) . I am using the evidence of your own thread when you say don't think I'll find quality developers that will work for free? They do it by the thousands every week. Across many opensource websites around the world and the very software infrastructure that most corporates use, use open source applications, development languages, frameworks, web services, Enterprise, operating systems, yup 'for free' surely you know that? :D

We are. What your talking about is turning ST into something like GameSpy servers. And we all know how good and stable they are and how good they are at handling cheat reports.


Riz are you saying because one company is bad others shouldn't try to be better. I actually do know what I'm talking about that's the issue. I have to go into large software houses and make a living at similar types of things. I actually like XWIS thats the reason I was considering sponsoring this kind of event with prizes because of the benefit (if losing loads of matches over the years is a benefit) it has given me over many a year.

#27 evlkn1ght

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

Hope your not one of those grammar police as there are plenty of mistakes in my threads to keep you happy for years ;) . I am using the evidence of your own thread when you say don't think I'll find quality developers that will work for free? They do it by the thousands every week. Across many opensource websites around the world and the very software infrastructure that most corporates use, use open source applications, development languages, frameworks, web services, Enterprise, operating systems, yup 'for free' surely you know that? :D



Riz are you saying because one company is bad others shouldn't try to be better. I actually do know what I'm talking about that's the issue. I have to go into large software houses and make a living at similar types of things. I actually like XWIS thats the reason I was considering sponsoring this kind of event with prizes because of the benefit (if losing loads of matches over the years is a benefit) it has given me over many a year.


id love to help u out reano. uve got some really awesome ideas. If i can help in ANY way PLEASE let me know.

as for a prize structure, im basing this on money is not a big isssue for u.

1st - $250
2nd - 100
3rd - 50
4th - 25
5th - 10

most played - $50
highest winning percentage with some minimum played lets just say 50 games - $50
random idea, bounty bonuses. so lets say u knock off someone of legendary status such as tomi, $10 a win over someone of that stature.
i could probly come up with some more ideas, trying to not be to rediculous here.

end of year "championship bracket"

1st - $1000
2nd - 500
3rd - 250

just some brainstorming to think about.

#28 reano

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:06 PM

id love to help u out reano. uve got some really awesome ideas. If i can help in ANY way PLEASE let me know.

as for a prize structure, im basing this on money is not a big isssue for u.

1st - $250
2nd - 100
3rd - 50
4th - 25
5th - 10

most played - $50
highest winning percentage with some minimum played lets just say 50 games - $50
random idea, bounty bonuses. so lets say u knock off someone of legendary status such as tomi, $10 a win over someone of that stature.
i could probly come up with some more ideas, trying to not be to rediculous here.

end of year "championship bracket"

1st - $1000
2nd - 500
3rd - 250

just some brainstorming to think about.


Lol about money is not an issue for me I have my own bills to pay but I would consider sponsoring an event like this with some prizes up to tenth place maybe.

#29 riz

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:30 PM

Hope your not one of those grammar police as there are plenty of mistakes in my threads to keep you happy for years ;) . I am using the evidence of your own thread when you say don't think I'll find quality developers that will work for free? They do it by the thousands every week. Across many opensource websites around the world and the very software infrastructure that most corporates use, use open source applications, development languages, frameworks, web services, Enterprise, operating systems, yup 'for free' surely you know that? :D


Not grammer police, just a stupid answer to a stupid question. Of course i know the difference between professional games testers and beta testers. It's the main reason why we can't officially patch RA2/YR.

OK let me be more specific, I don't think you are going to find many developers who would work on the games projects you named above "for free". Those that do do it, do it for their own reasons on projects they have an active interest in ie:hobbyists like Olaf. Some kind of motivation. Since we are only a small community I doubt you are going to find many interested capable developers willing to give their time away.

Are you syaing all open source programs have never had any paid developement time?
http://blog.forsakenlabs.com/2009/08/05/th...free-developer/

Riz are you saying because one company is bad others shouldn't try to be better. I actually do know what I'm talking about that's the issue. I have to go into large software houses and make a living at similar types of things. I actually like XWIS thats the reason I was considering sponsoring this kind of event with prizes because of the benefit (if losing loads of matches over the years is a benefit) it has given me over many a year.


No, I am saying that XWIS has it's purpose and place, yet your "I would"'s expand those to beyond recongition. Feel free to sponsor an event, I ain't trying to put you off that. I replied to your post about what "you would do with XWIS?ST", i ain't trying to stop you doing that either.

Why don't you go ahead and do what you say you would do anyway? Surely you don't need XWIS/ST to go down before you start since you have so much experience, own a software house, have access to lots of developers willing to give you free developement time etc etc.

#30 reano

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:37 PM

Not grammer police, just a stupid answer to a stupid question. Of course i know the difference between professional games testers and beta testers. It's the main reason why we can't officially patch RA2/YR.

OK let me be more specific, I don't think you are going to find many developers who would work on the games projects you named above "for free". Those that do do it, do it for their own reasons on projects they have an active interest in ie:hobbyists like Olaf. Some kind of motivation. Since we are only a small community I doubt you are going to find many interested capable developers willing to give their time away.

Are you syaing all open source programs have never had any paid developement time?
http://blog.forsakenlabs.com/2009/08/05/th...free-developer/


No, I am saying that XWIS has it's purpose and place, yet your "I would"'s expand those to beyond recongition. Feel free to sponsor an event, I ain't trying to put you off that. I replied to your post about what "you would do with XWIS?ST", i ain't trying to stop you doing that either.

Why don't you go ahead and do what you say you would do anyway? Surely you don't need XWIS/ST to go down before you start since you have so much experience, own a software house, have access to lots of developers willing to give you free developement time etc etc.


If you go back through the thread from the beginning read what I said from the beginning then look at what you are arguing with... You will find it's yourself..... I don't intend to continue a meaningful conversation with you. You are clearly irritated by something. Not going to talk about opensource, developers, projects, etc just chillax and have a cookie :sp_ike:

#31 riz

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:47 PM

I ain't arguing or irritated, just pointing out to members who are/would be jumping on the things you say you would do as being great idea's but in reality they are just not feasible. You can be the voice of fantasy all you like, but don't expect the voice of reason to keep quiet.

Best not to lead members into a false sense of security. When/if XWIS goes down, ST goes with it no matter what you would or wouldn't do in fantasy land.

#32 reano

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:51 PM

I ain't arguing or irritated, just pointing out to members who are/would be jumping on the things you say you would do as being great idea's but in reality they are just not feasible. You can be the voice of fantasy all you like, but don't expect the voice of reason to keep quiet.

Best not to lead members into a false sense of security. When/if XWIS goes down, ST goes with it no matter what you would or wouldn't do in fantasy land.


Can't argue with your logic it's sound.. :cool:

#33 Skable

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:52 PM

I'm enjoying this topic so far. :)

oh and Golf, don't be an ****

Edited by Skable, 17 September 2009 - 09:53 PM.


#34 Plox

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:00 PM

Lol...


I freelance program in several languages including the sexy important one...C++ :) I would love to assist with any patches for the game if need be, I am pretty sure it wouldn't take me too long to get my head around the scode.


However, I do believe that what Riz is saying is correct....ambition isn't ever a bad thing Reano but what you are saying lacks key elements, which would be out of your control!

#35 riz

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:26 PM

Admirable, but the source code isn't available, although it isn't really needed for a mod like 1.007. EA are not going to spend the thousands needed to Quality check any patch we produce. i know i've waited months for EA patches they said were ready but still in the QC phase. They can barely bring themselves to patch their new titles anyway never mind a game they class as abandonware.

#36 Plox

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:38 PM

So annoying!

Is there any way in which you can forsee a proper patch for YR being created? I am talking about one which fixes things like miner glitch, invisible mcv etc etc etc mapping, fogging..

Have EA ever given out the source code to an old game?

#37 riz

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 11:44 PM

I can't see EA ever spending any money that they don't have to or are not already commited to on ra2/yr/ts again :( I reckon it's also a safe bet to say games like generals and cnc3 are out of the window regarding patches. ra3 will be nearing the end of it's patching lifetime soon. They make so much more money by releasing a new game than supporting an old one it's not worth the investment to them.

Not that I know of.

#38 Farscape

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 12:47 AM

then i wud be rich, baby

Rich from 12x100 a year? epic lulz.

:laugh:

#39 evlkn1ght

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:18 AM

all gd things come from a simple dream of what could be. imagine a world where noone ever pursued a dream because it didnt "seem feasible." under this way of thinking my country may not exist.

if u fight for it, with a gd plan uve at least got a fighting chance to actually change something. or u can shoot down every idea and remain in the perverbial stone age.

as for the ea issue. its called harrass the f out of them until they finally get so annoyed they go fine heres the stupid code or the whatever u need now go away.

ill also remind u all of 1 very simple fact. WE run ea. WE tell them what to do. its oversimplifying things obviously. but in the end if the ppl no longer buy what a company produces it collapses. are we a small segment for them? of course. but then again think about. ok we all play cnc, and probably inevitably games like madden, need for speed, etc. we know friends who play them, they have friends that play them, etc etc. until u quickly encompass the majority of ppl.

so the question is then how do u use this connection to make ea do what WE want. idk what that answer is. but figure that out (if possible) and our problems are solved.

and how can we criticize ea when a simple qm renovation that was supposed to be done 2 months ago is still nowhere to be seen. maybe this is actually xwis's fault with the blame merely passed on to ea to save the admins from a lot of work? not to hate just brainstorming once more.

@ reano, well gimme a budget plan and ill create a prize plan for ya :)

#40 Ben

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 10:13 AM

tldr; ban thread.

Edited by Ben, 18 September 2009 - 10:13 AM.


#41 reano

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:46 AM

Lol...


I freelance program in several languages including the sexy important one...C++ :) I would love to assist with any patches for the game if need be, I am pretty sure it wouldn't take me too long to get my head around the scode.


However, I do believe that what Riz is saying is correct....ambition isn't ever a bad thing Reano but what you are saying lacks key elements, which would be out of your control!


You honestly don't expect me to outline a big business plan on these pages but I will add a bit more here so you can see but firstly I always speak on these pages in very high level due to the audience it's not a software development forum so I put simple ideas out there. But here goes (long thread warning.... geez)

1) C++ has lost a lot of flavour over the last few years and even the newer c#, .net etc has not made it's head way into corporate (where the main money is) life even some of the older none object orientated languages like ANSI 'C' can still demand more money on unix middle-tier platforms. A far better bet is to go into Java and in particular SOA technologies 'Service Orientated Architectures' make use of web services for deploying enterprise and middle tier technologies to companies as most of the new profitable development is around web services (Corporate enterprise web services built around frameworks and patterns such as those within a RUP deployment and increasing Agile 'open source' developments.

2) A lot of the C++, small bits of smalltalk, windows based developed is now being done out of India and can be picked up quite cheaply. Most of the large outsourcing development power houses like IBM, Steria, EDS, Cap Gemini, ATOS, Logica, etc have now move most of their core development to places like India, Eygpt, Brazil and increasing now in vietnam, indonesia and similar. The cost of a UK resource permanent devlopment is circa £25k - £50k depending on what part of the country you get them from and in what vertical industry they occupy like banking, government, utilities, software house, ISV, etc. If you go for contractors then you can pick them up from £30 - £70 per hour and some even less.

3) Due to the recession the resistence that most software houses, banks, large industries, etc had to offshoring has largely gone and now you can get a software developer who typically is more qualified than their western equivalent for c£5k - £8k a year. Thats around £5 hr (thats right less than minimum UK wage). This is a fact and you can get good people for less than that too and they develop some of the backbone of software you use everyday you just don't know it......

We/my company has recently employed 4 Indian resources to help us develop some Mcommerce applications to help companies better manage remote staff (won't go into the details of the project) and they cost less than one full time resource in UK (sorry just the way things are going). They are exceptionally qualified with a lot of resources having to have a degree just to get into a call centre. A masters in software engineering is the Norm.


So where was I. So in order to try to get a forum that you love to be more commercial viable you have to deliver a plan that of course does not only include the one application but a multiple and you have to deliver a working model that allows companies to generate more income or benefit (even if this is none financial directly but in greater brand awareness, educational, etc). I won't go into all the details but for example....

IBM brought Rational a big powerhouse in software development and Microfocus brought some bits of Compuware another powerhouse in software development and we have worked with those company's (and IBM is way bigger than EA) to develop some old software and allow them to make it available to corporates at a cheaper rental model for testing legacy application. Yup this was old rotten code not generating revenue..... lol. This has been done not an idea but done, delivered, the end...

People who can think (to coin a common phase) outside the box get on in the current market where things don't sit still.

The market has shifted quite marked due to the recession over the last year and where corportaes would not consider opensource in their companies are now doing so. Where companies had not thought about outsoucing to offshore 'core' processes. They have done now and thats in Telecoms, banking, software development, etc. Labour is cheap if you know where to look it's whether you have the desire, business acumen to take hold of the opportunities, etc.

When I mentioned my 'I would's ' I was generating debate and ideas and not expecting it to turn into a political animal. This is a hobby that has given me pleasure and as ways of gratitude I have only this year started to make donations.

SO riz raher than find the negatives all the time how about suggestion models that you think we could latch on to.

1) Create a model you think could work to keep XWIS/EA/ST relationship going (and in fact bring in other companies yes you may become like gamespy but as bad as some say they were they developed critical mass).
2) Next invite people to sponsor and join in a steering board to drive these things forward
3) Set up a development forum with a development framework for people to contribute snippets of code that could be used to bust cheats, hacks, etc
4) I could go on but I have to get back to work.

#42 Plox

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:06 PM

You honestly don't expect me to outline a big business plan on these pages but I will add a bit more here so you can see but firstly I always speak on these pages in very high level due to the audience it's not a software development forum so I put simple ideas out there. But here goes (long thread warning.... geez)

1) C++ has lost a lot of flavour over the last few years and even the newer c#, .net etc has not made it's head way into corporate (where the main money is) life even some of the older none object orientated languages like ANSI 'C' can still demand more money on unix middle-tier platforms. A far better bet is to go into Java and in particular SOA technologies 'Service Orientated Architectures' make use of web services for deploying enterprise and middle tier technologies to companies as most of the new profitable development is around web services (Corporate enterprise web services built around frameworks and patterns such as those within a RUP deployment and increasing Agile 'open source' developments.


I didnt say I only programmed in C++, it just sticks out in my mind as that was the first I mastered and if you know it, it provides a great platform to learn all the others...

The last ecomm site I did was .net framework using C#.

2) A lot of the C++, small bits of smalltalk, windows based developed is now being done out of India and can be picked up quite cheaply. Most of the large outsourcing development power houses like IBM, Steria, EDS, Cap Gemini, ATOS, Logica, etc have now move most of their core development to places like India, Eygpt, Brazil and increasing now in vietnam, indonesia and similar. The cost of a UK resource permanent devlopment is circa £25k - £50k depending on what part of the country you get them from and in what vertical industry they occupy like banking, government, utilities, software house, ISV, etc. If you go for contractors then you can pick them up from £30 - £70 per hour and some even less.


It is, but people still choose to have people 'in house' rather than in another country if they can....

3) Due to the recession the resistence that most software houses, banks, large industries, etc had to offshoring has largely gone and now you can get a software developer who typically is more qualified than their western equivalent for c£5k - £8k a year. Thats around £5 hr (thats right less than minimum UK wage). This is a fact and you can get good people for less than that too and they develop some of the backbone of software you use everyday you just don't know it......


Again my point about being 'in house' stands, a lot of companies do not like the risk involved with offshoring

We/my company has recently employed 4 Indian resources to help us develop some Mcommerce applications to help companies better manage remote staff (won't go into the details of the project) and they cost less than one full time resource in UK (sorry just the way things are going). They are exceptionally qualified with a lot of resources having to have a degree just to get into a call centre. A masters in software engineering is the Norm.



So where was I. So in order to try to get a forum that you love to be more commercial viable you have to deliver a plan that of course does not only include the one application but a multiple and you have to deliver a working model that allows companies to generate more income or benefit (even if this is none financial directly but in greater brand awareness, educational, etc). I won't go into all the details but for example....

IBM brought Rational a big powerhouse in software development and Microfocus brought some bits of Compuware another powerhouse in software development and we have worked with those company's (and IBM is way bigger than EA) to develop some old software and allow them to make it available to corporates at a cheaper rental model for testing legacy application. Yup this was old rotten code not generating revenue..... lol. This has been done not an idea but done, delivered, the end...

People who can think (to coin a common phase) outside the box get on in the current market where things don't sit still.

The market has shifted quite marked due to the recession over the last year and where corportaes would not consider opensource in their companies are now doing so. Where companies had not thought about outsoucing to offshore 'core' processes. They have done now and thats in Telecoms, banking, software development, etc. Labour is cheap if you know where to look it's whether you have the desire, business acumen to take hold of the opportunities, etc.

When I mentioned my 'I would's ' I was generating debate and ideas and not expecting it to turn into a political animal. This is a hobby that has given me pleasure and as ways of gratitude I have only this year started to make donations.

SO riz raher than find the negatives all the time how about suggestion models that you think we could latch on to.

1) Create a model you think could work to keep XWIS/EA/ST relationship going (and in fact bring in other companies yes you may become like gamespy but as bad as some say they were they developed critical mass).
2) Next invite people to sponsor and join in a steering board to drive these things forward
3) Set up a development forum with a development framework for people to contribute snippets of code that could be used to bust cheats, hacks, etc
4) I could go on but I have to get back to work.




ffs all the copying and pasting lost half my text. grrrrrrrrrrreat.


To conclude my original post

- C++ is and will still be used in software development for the forseeable future
- .net framework is really taking off
- You quoted way too many technologies and stats/facts, was this deliberate to try and confuse people?
- As the **** fell out of the industry over the last few years, companies are going abroad but at the same time, they are investing in a lot of interns/students which grow into advanced level engineers , with a lot of dedication, rather than just working for a set fee. I explained it better originally. W/e LOL

Edited by Plox, 18 September 2009 - 04:14 PM.


#43 reano

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:06 PM

I didnt say I only programmed in C++, it just sticks out in my mind as that was the first I mastered and if you know it, it provides a great platform to learn all the others...

The last ecomm site I did was .net framework using C#.



It is, but people still choose to have people 'in house' rather than in another country if they can....



Again my point about being 'in house' stands, a lot of companies do not like the risk involved with offshoring


ffs all the copying and pasting lost half my text. grrrrrrrrrrreat.


To conclude my original post

- C++ is and will still be used in software development for the forseeable future
- .net framework is really taking off
- You quoted way too many technologies and stats/facts, was this deliberate to try and confuse people?
- As the **** fell out of the industry over the last few years, companies are going abroad but at the same time, they are investing in a lot of interns/students which grow into advanced level engineers , with a lot of dedication, rather than just working for a set fee. I explained it better originally. W/e LOL


lol u didn't need to paste all my text i understand what u are saying but now from what I have seen 'a lot and its increasing of development is being done offshore' remember some of these companies buy offshore companies, integrate them into their own companies then get rid of the more expensive staff. This is happening in a bigger way than I've ever seen and likeI said I have been in this for many a year.

Now you say I quote way too many. The first time you said I fell short lol. I was elaborating to show I know what I'm talking about and to give you pointers to where the future lies. C++ will be a language for the forseeable future but so is COBOL and thats like 40+ years old but do you want to be there. I was pointing you to the future and where the big money is not to where they are farming it out to offshore unless thats where you would like your job to go...

I tried to explain that companies 'on the whole' are not seeing off-shoring as a risk why? Even big banks are doing it for 'core' processing/development/transactional payments and even some government work now and thats for the most secure developments out there.

1) Whats the risk that is not faced by having it in house? Intellectual property rights? Data? Theft? Name them? If you think it's more risky offshore I can tell you they apply greater control over the security of data, staff movements, access control, etc than loads of companies Ive seen in Europe.
2) English? Some speak better than those in UK
3) Qualification/skills? - In general they demand more from their graduate entrance
4) Cost - Already been there.
5) Manpower - With nearly a billion people and a working population of way more than most of the west countries its a no brainer.

Let me tell you who outsources in a big way Microsoft, IBM (and all their main sattelite companies), SAP, Lloyds, Barclays, Santander, RBS, EDS, CAP Gemini, ATOS Origin, Logica, Steria, Accenture, http://news.cnet.com/Sony-outsources-IT-de..._3-6142005.html, ",

This is a natural cycle with the movement of labor, distribution of wealth, etc. Just like the car industry before it. America and west helped Asian market and now they (with the exception of the german manufacturers) surpass the west in quality and even size Toyota taking number one spot.

To keep ahead of the game you need to spot the patterns and just be one step ahead of the game. So my advice to you if you are a budding C++ developer (I know you said others too) is to look into web services, EJB, Websphere, MQ Series, Transactional processing systems and try and get a job in those areas and get yourself up from a developer to analyst to Lead as most of the grunt of the work will be done increasing offshore (if they are big projects) and you can just co-ordinate, manage and direct the work.

Edited by reano, 18 September 2009 - 05:10 PM.


#44 riz

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:56 PM

SO riz raher than find the negatives all the time how about suggestion models that you think we could latch on to.


Try latching onto the fact that when XWIS ends there is no use for ST. If you want a positive, then be pleased that there is no reason XWIS should ever end.

#45 Plox

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 06:16 PM

Reano have a read about this re: offshoring - very interesting

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/ITPro.pdf

#46 Arron1

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:11 PM

we all wud have heart attacks

#47 warhero99

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:09 PM

we all wud have heart attacks


if XWIS/ST shuts down?

#48 Arron1

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:26 PM

fo sh0

#49 warhero99

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:30 PM

lol

#50 reano

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:08 AM

Reano have a read about this re: offshoring - very interesting

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/ITPro.pdf


published 2005 which in IT is pretty long and it means not many people believe this as they are offshoring more than ever now that is a fact unfortunately and I mean that cause even I get affected hence you have to join them...


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