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QM maps with 'lame' spots


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#1 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 12:58 PM

Okay so I'm enjoying QM'ing again recently, however I feel far too often that certain position play a deciding role in the outcome of a series. I don't usually moan about positions or any map for that matter, however recently there has been an influx of dodgy games where you feel like you've basically lost before you start. Now in this day and age of Ra2 we have remakes of most of the maps in question. So why on earth aren't these lame spots just put to bed for good? We could so easily replace them with the 'fair' versions of them. Just to name a few.

 

Heartland replace with BL vs TR

Paris replace with Paris BL v TR

SP replace with TL vs BR

Snow Valley replace with TL vs BR

DC Uprising replace with BL vs TR (although still unfair, it would be a huge improvement to getting that BR spot vs TR..)
Dry Heat replace with TvB (L's miner takes so damn long to get money early game, it's near impossible, really)

 

Now those are really all I can think of from the top of my head, however I have been burned by them enough times recently to clearly remember the games. This is merely a suggestion at the end of the day, but i'm sure a lot would agree losing your points to a lame spot just sucks, especially if a deciding game. It would be such an easy change to make..please consider :)

 

Sincerely

 

 

 

 

 



#2 Sustanon

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 01:01 PM

Heartland, Paris Revisited, Snow Valley and DC Uprising are fine for every spot.

I agree with Dry Heat LvR being unbalanced and L at a pretty big disadvantage due to gems being farther away.

South Pacific is completely unbalanced for Soviet vs. Allied and should be mirror only.

:)

#3 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 01:02 PM

Alex man you must be joking..if I got TR vs BR is a freewin, how can you even say that? BR has no ore, no techs, miles away from the goodies in the middle of map (which TR can access within 1 min).



#4 Sustanon

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 01:13 PM

Wrong. Top does have a Paradrop but has to waste 500 $ on an Engineer to get it. Bottom has enough ore to put up a fight.

Honestly, I've won the best players from every spot on DC Uprising when I was competing for RaNk #1. :)

Besides, DC Uprising has been removed from QM anyways. I never got matched on it when I played in November, December & January. :( It should be added to QM again.

==================

TR doesn't know whether you're BL or BR. Both BL (pillbox at bridge and garrison building) and BR (garrison buildings) can anti-scout very well. So TR doesn't know what you are about to do.

Obviously, you will have to put pressure on TR. :)

I've had insane GGs on DC Uprising with Naval battles and Superweapons. It's not a bad map by any means. It's very tactical. :yes:

Edited by Sustanon, 06 February 2016 - 01:29 PM.


#5 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:16 PM

DC Uprising is still in qm.



#6 Sustanon

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:41 PM

DC Uprising is still in qm.

No, it's not.

#7 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:43 PM

http://xwis.net/ra2/games/2205/                              

 



#8 ALiTheGreatest

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

you both have it enabled in your game account thats why. It's not a standard map though anymore



#9 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:49 PM

Ah fair play then.



#10 PiNeRs

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 04:36 PM

there are many terrible maps u can get in QM.

#11 Sustanon

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 04:43 PM

there are many terrible maps u can get in QM.

Do you care to elaborate? Which maps/spots would that be?


#12 PiNeRs

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 05:31 PM

off the top of my head?

-tr of sp
-tr of Cs
-CS in general l0l
-isle of war
-urban rush
-pinch point
-may day
-Dc uprising
-Hills have eyes (worst map in the game)
-lake blitz
-oasis trouble
-north waves
-yin yang (oil being hugely important)
-DMZ
-Hammer & S
-Alaskan oil spill
- sv tr vs bl
-Paris BR

Even some maps I like the most have issues. For instance, on Heck RvR, the bottom position is way easier to play and has an advantage vs TR imo. Snow valley as another example, BR is way easier to play. And on DH, bottom is. On TOE and morning tide there are 6 spawns, some of which are more favorable than others. The list goes on.


An example of a flawless map would be Divide and Conquer imo.

#13 AMadKirov

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 06:03 PM

I dont know why you people complain about spots.... I complain only about Hammer & Sickle and all the navals maps where you need SuperWeapon and Its not fucking enable. but i guess im the one wrong.



#14 Tim4TiGO

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:26 PM

-oasis trouble

 

What about this little nice map? :)

 

==============

 

sovsordie aka sunny the cheater, zigga is making a yuri tourney, it won't mind adding you to my team because i know no one it willing to play with someone with inferior skills like you (you will be the weak spot in every map tho) :rizla: 



#15 FOCUSVITA

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:27 PM

I dont know why you people complain about spots.... I complain only about Hammer & Sickle and all the navals maps where you need SuperWeapon and Its not fucking enable. but i guess im the one wrong.

I don't think you understand the game enough to give us your opinion , I mean would you even know when you are at disadvantage / advantage ? I think you never gotten more than 270 points on Qm so ... so by only reading the last thing you said I say indeed you sir are the wrong one .

#16 PiNeRs

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:29 PM

br paris is like being down 2 miners.

#17 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:31 AM

What about this little nice map? :)

 

==============

 

sovsordie aka sunny the cheater, zigga is making a yuri tourney, it won't mind adding you to my team because i know no one it willing to play with someone with inferior skills like you (you will be the weak spot in every map tho) :rizla:

 

Wut?



#18 willy

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:02 AM

sovsordie is not sunny -_-



#19 rumblesom

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 10:12 AM

Okay so I'm enjoying QM'ing again recently, however I feel far too often that certain position play a deciding role in the outcome of a series. I don't usually moan about positions or any map for that matter, however recently there has been an influx of dodgy games where you feel like you've basically lost before you start. Now in this day and age of Ra2 we have remakes of most of the maps in question. So why on earth aren't these lame spots just put to bed for good? We could so easily replace them with the 'fair' versions of them. Just to name a few.

 

Heartland replace with BL vs TR

Paris replace with Paris BL v TR

SP replace with TL vs BR

Snow Valley replace with TL vs BR

DC Uprising replace with BL vs TR (although still unfair, it would be a huge improvement to getting that BR spot vs TR..)
Dry Heat replace with TvB (L's miner takes so damn long to get money early game, it's near impossible, really)

 

Now those are really all I can think of from the top of my head, however I have been burned by them enough times recently to clearly remember the games. This is merely a suggestion at the end of the day, but i'm sure a lot would agree losing your points to a lame spot just sucks, especially if a deciding game. It would be such an easy change to make..please consider :)

 

Sincerely

Hey Chris- 

 

I agree that most of the spots you mentioned are imbalanced in comparison to the majority of new QM maps, but most of those problems actually comprised the classic qm for years. What I mean is, years worth of competition were played on those maps and spots and it seemed like the game was well loved. 

 

As far as I can recall (I arrived in 2007, but took interest in the history of the game before my time) the most contentious problems were on Tour A, DC Uprising and Pinch Point. But a quick search will return many topics in which the active pros of the time debated inconclusively what should done, if anything. 

 

I think that's testament to the fact that either of two evenly matched players could win from either spot in most of the scenarios you mention. 

 

So maybe those games aren't perfect per se, but fall within a certain tolerance most accepted at the time.

 

Now the new maps have raised the standard of "fair balance" considerably, and all the map variants such as BL vs TR Paris were created to enable players to choose the more fair set ups for classic maps, but only in custom games. 

 

The QM is a bit of a different story imo. My impression of the QM has always been its a bit raw- no hand-holding. Kind of like: You get the map you get, the spot you get, and the game is ranked. Deal with it. If you can't hack it then you're not cut out for the 1v1 ladder.

 

Nowadays tho the QM is underused and most top end games are played via tournament or CM. I think that's more a product of activity than dissatisfaction with map balance, but it's probably both.

 

Having administered the map pool for years I've always been especially careful to preserve the traditional maps of the QM. I mostly agree that the qm should be refined towards fair balance as much as possible, but I also have a bit of fondness for the "raw" qm style. It is true that a few elite players dominated the top ranks consistently, and they had to deal with the imbalanced scenarios you mention.

 

Maybe there's a balance to be struck? Or maybe that's just nonsense and the QM should be built to be as fair as possible (which is to an extent a subjective matter).

 

 

And the kicker- even tho it seems as if programming the patch so that two players both using it could be matched on a refined set maps (fairest balance) we've had trouble implementing it.. you know what I mean? ;)

 

And for games between players without the patch, or with only 1 of two ppl using the patch, what should be done then? Allow the 'unfair' set ups? No QM for them? I think it can get a bit complicated. 

 

And finally, where does it end? Should we have a tiny set of maps which are the fairest of the fairest fair maps? haha even if we got a majority to vote in favor of stringent fairness (unlikely I think, diversity is more appreciated) it'd be a billion-to-1 shot that we could also agree on which few maps to include.

 

 

 

but really- the implementation problem is the sort of nonstarter where all this discussion ends. 

 

As a starting point, perhaps people could suggest a good total number of maps for the QM, and name some maps they think are the most fair.



#20 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:38 AM

Hey mate cheerts for the detailed post. I agree with you on a lot of your points, I have played since 2003 (was a newb for years though, some might say still am!) and have seen lots of maps come and go in QM. My point was basically that since we do have 'fair' versions of the maps I named, surely it would make sense to just replace them with the standard versions. I can see your point though but fail to be able to comprehend a 5-4 loss coming down to getting Left on DH or something similar. Having 8 great games and then the 9th just being decided for you (basically). You can try and try from those lame positions, but vs someone of equal ability you'll never win unless they make some kinda of major error.

 

I can deal with it being that way, as you say I have dealt with it for so long, but the win rule was always 3 for as long as I have played and so series lasted much less time. Now you can spend a decent chunk of time in a series and so the kick in the balls is even worse if you get a shitter :p



#21 rumblesom

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:28 PM

NP Chris. Especially since the QM is pretty inactive I think we can discuss more substantial changes to it

 

I think a 30 map QM is a good amount for a matching pool, what do you guys think? 

 

30 maps chosen between the original 26 and the 50 or so new maps that are the most fair? 

 

1 problem: what to do about matching with ppl who don't have the patch?



#22 willy

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 04:10 AM

Hey mate cheerts for the detailed post. I agree with you on a lot of your points, I have played since 2003 (was a newb for years though, some might say still am!) and have seen lots of maps come and go in QM. My point was basically that since we do have 'fair' versions of the maps I named, surely it would make sense to just replace them with the standard versions. I can see your point though but fail to be able to comprehend a 5-4 loss coming down to getting Left on DH or something similar. Having 8 great games and then the 9th just being decided for you (basically). You can try and try from those lame positions, but vs someone of equal ability you'll never win unless they make some kinda of major error.

 

I can deal with it being that way, as you say I have dealt with it for so long, but the win rule was always 3 for as long as I have played and so series lasted much less time. Now you can spend a decent chunk of time in a series and so the kick in the balls is even worse if you get a shitter :p

you've come a long way since your days of Tourny B ;)



#23 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 05:05 PM

you've come a long way since your days of Tourny B ;)

 

I have no idea what you're talking about :baby:



#24 Seke

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:53 PM

I remember a decent sov player wanted to practice L side on pinch point vs. me s v s (he was by no means a noob i just dont remember his name). Anyways, probably played like 30 games and he lost 30-0 lol.

 

R side on pinch is very strong



#25 SoVsOrDiE

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 11:16 PM

Haha ouch, that's some practice sesh! I commend his persistence for sure.




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