21 replies to this topic

[rumblesom]

Hey everyone,

 

This topic is to discuss possible changes as mentioned in the title. I'll start by providing a list of possible changes which have been discussed recently. This is not a final list or an exact proposal but rather a collection of recent and recurrent issues with the 25 remaining original qm maps. 

 

I'd like to keep this topic from deteriorating into personal or otherwise off-topic posts as much as possible. Therefore it might be handy to simply supply responses under this rough template:

 

1) Most imbalanced maps AvS: 

 

2) Maps to set as mirror-match only:

 

3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard):

 

4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on:

 

5) Map repairs:

 

 

I'd like to point out that a radical change to this map set is simply not going to happen. Realistically, I think an upper limit of 5 maps on any of these categories is doable. Nonetheless, if you'd like to post more than 5 please prioritize the list from most urgent to least. Many of these categories may overlap but the more frequent a response, the stronger the argument a change should be implemented. 

 

Also, the first question is primarily to target the "worst offenders" allied players face, but it may also be answered as worst maps to play as soviet AvS. 

 

Map repairs can usually be done technically, but should mostly be noted in reference to true "bugs". The non-functioning left-side repair box of Hammer and Sickle is a good example. The single airport on Montana DMZ is not. 

 

Other notes:

 

-The issue of duplicates is being remedied. 

-The previous QM Poll results were inconclusive; there will be a topic similar to this regarding new maps- no change to follow from the previous poll. 

 

 

Here are the questions filled out using posts from related topics:

 

1) Most imbalanced maps AvS: Urban Rush, Defcon 6, Pinch Point, Tournament Map A, Golden State FWY

 

2) Maps to set as mirror-match only: Urban Rush, Defcon 6, Pinch Point, Tournament Map A, Golden State FWY, Alamo, Sovereign Land, Paris Revisited

 

3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard): Urban Rush, Isle of War, Alaskan Oil Spill, Defcon 6

 

4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on: Hammer and Sickle, Isle of War, City Under Siege 

 

5) Map repairs: Make left-side wooden bridge on Hammer and Sickle repairable, mark difference with cement or conspicuous terrain at the bridge. Change top-left oils of May Day so they are no longer one-kills-all. 

 

 

Original 25 Westwood Maps:

 

Alaskan Oil Spill

Artic Circle

City Under Siege

Cold War

Country Swing

DEFCON 6

Depth Charge

Golden State Fwy

Hammer and Sickle

Heartland

Isle of War

Lake Blitzen

Malibu Cliffs

May Day

Montana DMZ

Official Tournament Map A

Official Tournament Map B

Paris Revisited

Pinch Point

Snow Valley

South Pacific

Sovereign Land

Stormy Weather

The Alamo

Urban Rush

Edited by rumblesom, 13 November 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[PiNeRs]

I agree with ur list. Here are some additional things:

 

 

--pinch point should be removed-- its just bad.

--Paris Rev-- should obviously only be TR vs BL if possible.

--Mayday-- there should be a second bridge on the right side for flanks. It is unfair that bottom can pressure top's miners fixing a bridge, while top can not do the same thing back.

[dsector]

Nice post Josh

 

Here's what I think:

 

1) Most imbalanced maps AvS: 

DEFCON 6

Official Tournament Map A

Pinch Point

Urban Rush

Hammer and Sickle (with SW off)

Golden State Fwy

 

2) Maps to set as mirror-match only:

Alaskan Oil Spill

DEFCON 6

Official Tournament Map A

Urban Rush

Golden State Fwy

 

3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard):

Alaskan Oil Spill

Isle of War

DEFCON 6

Pinch Point

 

4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on:

Alaskan Oil Spill

Depth Charge

Hammer and Sickle

Malibu Cliffs

Montana DMZ

Sovereign Land

Isle of War

 

5) Map repairs:

Hammer and Sickle

Cold War

Snow Valley

May Day

Malibu Cliffs (some spots aren't too fair)

 

EDIT: ah you added a list of changes in the meantime

Edited by dsector, 13 November 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[AlliedPlayer]

My 2 cents... Oasis trouble is glitched like crazy - cannot send tanks / dogs across whole maps without them getting stuck on hill corner / stopping without movement (similar to what happened on snow valley) Defcon is fine avs Golden state fwy is fine avs Paris is fine avs (but make it tr vs bl) Hammer is fine avs with sw on Urban is mirror only Alamo is fine avs(if top - better oil x2) and able to pressure mid miners - if bottom, para and oil and gems and garrisons to hide. Remove duplicates in maps Alaskan oil - mirror Depth charge - mirror or sw always on(unfair on sovs otherwise) Pinch - remove or mirror but i dont mind it avs Malibu - keep it tl vs br or tr vs ml (so both travel to gems)

[Olaf]

I'd remove the non-fixed Cold War and Snow Valley.
What about always enabling super weapons?

[FReQuEnZy]

I'd remove the non-fixed Cold War and Snow Valley.
What about always enabling super weapons?

 

I support both the removal of those maps and having super weapons as always on.

 

I'll post a maps changes list soon as well.

[BornL33T]

My 2 cents... Oasis trouble is glitched like crazy - cannot send tanks / dogs across whole maps without them getting stuck on hill corner / stopping without movement (similar to what happened on snow valley) Defcon is fine avs Golden state fwy is fine avs Paris is fine avs (but make it tr vs bl) Hammer is fine avs with sw on Urban is mirror only Alamo is fine avs(if top - better oil x2) and able to pressure mid miners - if bottom, para and oil and gems and garrisons to hide. Remove duplicates in maps Alaskan oil - mirror Depth charge - mirror or sw always on(unfair on sovs otherwise) Pinch - remove or mirror but i dont mind it avs Malibu - keep it tl vs br or tr vs ml (so both travel to gems)

 

You maybe hosted an old version of the map before it became offciel, i don't think the QM one is glitches, we watched Edd palying it on stream and haven't seen any bug.

Edited by Aladin, 13 November 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[ZiGZaG]

Standard Map's

 

Alaskan Oil Spill 

Arctic Circle 

City Under Siege 

Cold War 

Country Swing 

DEFCON 6   

Depth Charge 

Golden State Fwy 

Hammer and Sickle 

Heartland 

Lake Blitzen 

Malibu Cliffs 

May Day 

Montana DMZ 

Official Tournament Map A 

Official Tournament Map B 

Paris Revisited 

Snow Valley 

South Pacific 

Sovereign Land 

Stormy Weather 

 Urban Rush 

 

Non-Standard Map's

 

Isle of War 

Pinch Point 

The Alamo 

 

 

Map's Supers always ON

 

Alaskan oil spill

Depth Charge

Hammer and Sickle

Isle of War

Montana DMZ

 

Map's Mirror only

 

Urban Rush 

Alaskan Oil Spill

Official Tournament Map A

Defcon 6

 

Map repair's

 

1. Fix the bridge on Hammer and Sickle

2. Fix oil's on mayday at top left.

3. Have new versions of Cold War and Snow Valley become standard and old versions non standard, The same for hammer and May day if fixed versions are created. (Have this automated if you have the Auto SS)

 

This is basically the list i made before with all the newer map's removed from it.

 

As for superweapons being on in every game i personally think its a dreadful idea, I say this from experience, Yr used to have this setting in place, and the allied faction became redundant, every game was simply a rush for the iron curtain, Not only was this kind of unfair for the allied faction, it made every game the same and gameplay became rather stale, if you enable super's for every game i can guarentee you we will be back here sooner rather than later with complaints about the power of the iron curtain.

[AlliedPlayer]

I'd remove the non-fixed Cold War and Snow Valley.
What about always enabling super weapons?

 

 

agree with removing the non fixed maps

 

no way to superweapons always on - this would ruin QM, ALOT

 

 

You maybe hosted an old version of the map before it became offciel, i don't think the QM one is glitches, we watched Edd palying it on stream and haven't seen any bug.

 

i played it in QM against marko, dogs get stuck whilst scouting, ifvs get stuck whilst running around, grizzly get stuck whilst attacking - definitely glitched to high heaven, 

[FReQuEnZy]

(1) Most imbalanced maps AvS
 
DEFCON 6
Depth Charge
Hammer and Sickle
May Day
Official Tournament Map A
The Alamo
Urban Rush
 
All of these map have layouts that are either highly favorable for either Soviet or Allied factions.
 
 
 
(2) Maps to set as mirror-match only
 
DEFCON 6
Depth Charge
Hammer and Sickle
May Day
Official Tournament Map A
The Alamo
Urban Rush
 
Same as above.
 
(3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard)
 
Isle of War
Pinch Point
Alaskan Oil Spill
Defcon 6
The Alamo

 These maps are generally unfair between starting spots and don't allow for much variety in play styles.
 
(4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on
 
Arctic Circle
City Under Siege
Hammer and Sickle
Montana DMZ
Stormy weather
Depth Charge
Sovereign Land
 
(5) Map repairs
 
Snow valley - Replace with fixed version.
Cold War - Replace with fixed version.
Heartland - Replace with TR vs BL and TL vs BR versions.
 
Having super weapons always on can improve stability and reduce the luck factor.
If map pool is sorted correctly and the maps have the correct mirror settings then there shouldn't be much of a problem with supers being over powered per faction. Longer distances enable the allied players to either sabotage the super weapons through the use of special units or to prevent effective use of iron curtain by preventing the opponent from advancing their land based units.

Edited by FReQuEnZy, 13 November 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[ZiGZaG]

(1) Most imbalanced maps AvS
 
DEFCON 6
Depth Charge
Hammer and Sickle
Lake Blitzen

Malibu Cliffs

May Day
Official Tournament Map A
South Pacific

The Alamo
Urban Rush

 

All of these map have layouts that are either highly favorable for either Soviet or Allied factions.
 
 
 
(2) Maps to set as mirror-match only

 

DEFCON 6
Depth Charge
Hammer and Sickle
Lake Blitzen

Malibu Cliffs

May Day
Official Tournament Map A
South Pacific

The Alamo
Urban Rush

 

Same as above.

 
(3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard)

 

Isle of War

Pinch Point

Alaskan Oil Spill

Defcon 6

 These maps are generally unfair between starting spots and don't allow for much variety in play styles.

 

(4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on

 

Arctic Circle

City Under Siege

Hammer and Sickle

Montana DMZ

Stormy weather

Depth Charge

Sovereign Land

 

(5) Map repairs

 

Snow valley - Replace with fixed version.

Cold War - Replace with fixed version.

Heartland - Replace with TR vs BL and TL vs BR versions.

 

Having super weapons always on can improve stability and reduce the luck factor.

If map pool is sorted correctly and the maps have the correct mirror settings then there shouldn't be much of a problem with supers being over powered per faction. Longer distances enable the allied players to either sabotage the super weapons through the use of special units or to prevent effective use of iron curtain by preventing the opponent from advancing their land based units.

 I seriously disagree with supers always being on, in theory ur idea makes sense however these map changes arent just to accomodate top player's, in the lower tier of the game supers always on will result in allied players being smashed around even by player's they would normally win, every game will be a rush for the iron urtain, this is what happened to YR, also why should defcon 6 be set to non standard? why not just make it mirror?

 

 

Your list as mirror only makes no sense to me whats wrong with avs on depth, blitzen, hammer, may day, malibu, sp, even the alamo isnt imbalanced for a faction, its just imbalanced in general,

 

I think you are over-exaggeratig the advantages factions have on these map's a little, if u remove every map with every slight advantage qm will be boring. Only map's with strong imbalances due to map/faction should be fixed, there has to be a slight temperament.

 

Your super's always on list is pretty agreeable for the most part though.

 

Also this idea of editing map's rofl, its one thing to fix a broken bridge bug, but add bridges on may day? this made me chuckle. QM isnt supposed to be exactly 50-50 balance in every situation. Making it so would make the game rather dull. Also all these map's players have voted for supers on, i disagree that they should ALL have them, some map's i can understand but changing the situation on all of these map's will completely remove a type of gameplay that is and always has been part of the game. 

[BornL33T]

i played it in QM against marko, dogs get stuck whilst scouting, ifvs get stuck whilst running around, grizzly get stuck whilst attacking - definitely glitched to high heaven, 

 

O'Really?

 

It's nice that this map can stick grizzly whilst attacking

Good it didn't stucked your rockies whilst flying and your ships whilst surfing.

 

Here, i waypoint 30 dogs and IFVs around the whole map an none of them stopped..

 

 

Nice story bro, maybe it's Marko or something.

 

(Sorry for off topic)

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Nice work on the balance Josh

This is my opinion:

 

1) Most imbalanced maps AvS

 

Artic Circle
Depth Charge
Hammer and Sickle
Lake Blitzen

Malibu Cliffs

May Day

Montana DMZ
Urban Rush

 

2) Maps to set as mirror-match only

 

Lake Blitzen
Urban Rush

 
3) Maps to be removed (set non-standard)

 

Artic Circle

 

4) Maps to have super weapons set always-on

 

All the maps..developers worked hard on SW so why banning them? why i need to be lucky to get them on? any reason they off? You need 1000$+2500$+1000$+2500$ to get an Iron C, is that few? 

 

5) Map repairs

 

Hammer and Sickle (bridge)

Cold War (there's really no need for those barrels)

Snow Valley (glitches)

May Day (oils tl)

Country Swing (why no one mention it? every time i play this map i see peoples saying it has more ore on bottom or something)

Edited by Aladin, 13 November 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Inego]

why not put the same delays of Chronosphere than iron curtain?

 

maybe it will be more fair?

[ZiGZaG]

why not put the same delays of Chronosphere than iron curtain?

 

maybe it will be more fair?

This cant be done. 

[FReQuEnZy]

I seriously disagree with supers always being on, in theory ur idea makes sense however these map changes arent just to accomodate top player's, in the lower tier of the game supers always on will result in allied players being smashed around even by player's they would normally win, every game will be a rush for the iron urtain, this is what happened to YR, also why should defcon 6 be set to non standard? why not just make it mirror?

 
Then the lower tier players should learn... That's like saying that lower tier sovs win a lot more because they can use desolators, but the same tier allied don't know how to stop them, by legionaire, jets, rockies, few tanks... It's true though. Sovs are just easier.

I've won 2v1 as allied vs 2 sovs with sw on. Just takes a bit of spying and making sure the opponent can't get close enough to your base to use it properly, they either have to keep moving or stop and recieve heavy damage and if they manage to get to your base just use legionaires to protect buildings and keep units at a reasonable distance. I learned all these things the hard way, by losing. The same would apply to any lower tier players.

You talk about a rush for the IC every game, but you can't understand why the oldskool players don't like defcon 6 anymore.
1. It's always a sell mcv rush game.
2. Unfair spots.
3. It's stale and lame. 
 
 

Your list as mirror only makes no sense to me whats wrong with avs on depth, blitzen, hammer, may day, malibu, sp, even the alamo isnt imbalanced for a faction, its just imbalanced in general,

If you've ever played any actual top players like Awaz or W0nna then you'd realize that allied factions are simply over powered on that map.
The allies can control the air and the sea with ease. Stopping sovs from getting oils/killing engies, attacking buildings from the sea, allied mobility.

Blitzen wasn't supposed to be in there. Too much copy n paste in the middle of class.

Alamo b sovs vs allied is like urban rush avs, sovs are just too strong on small maps. You can only defend your base for so long against a good sov, if you have good micro, it has been determined before that it should be mirrored and infact it was set as that before the settings went afk.

Instead of going into detail for the sake of not wasting time and sanity, the maps I mentioned have been considered as Allied maps since the beginning of time.
A good allied player will slap any good sov on them due to better suited unit abilities for the allied faction and this is mainly noticeable when you're playing a evenly matched opponent.
 

I think you are over-exaggeratig the advantages factions have on these map's a little, if u remove every map with every slight advantage qm will be boring. Only map's with strong imbalances due to map/faction should be fixed, there has to be a slight temperament.
 
Your super's always on list is pretty agreeable for the most part though.
 
 QM isnt supposed to be exactly 50-50 balance in every situation. Making it so would make the game rather dull.

 
I think you're over exaggerating as I did just mention the maps that I believe to have the strong imbalances. So, don't be daft and pay attention.
I do agree to having a slight temperament as you put it.
 
I can agree to the comment about QM to a small degree due to the previous comment I made, but it should be your playstyle or styles that make the game fun, not the imbalances.
For example when I got bored of standard sovs while playing QM years ago, I started splitting in every game I could and guess what? I had more fun then ever before and I started winning more. The most amusing part was when players complained about it and said that I play like a coward or a lamer. xD
 
 

O'Really?
 
It's nice that this map can stick grizzly whilst attacking

 
Yes, really. My tanks got stuck on it many times as well. I noticed in the map editor that there's plenty of cliff errors all over the map, so if you can't make perfect cliffs don't ask your maps to be put in QM as they won't work as they should. Your map should be removed until fixes are implemented.
 

why not put the same delays of Chronosphere than iron curtain?
 
maybe it will be more fair?

Because the server owner thinks that the game can't be patched, due to the lack of source code.
Basically he wants to fix everything instead of what can be fixed now.

[Bigfatrat]

QM'n this month for the first in a very long time, I've noticed a couple of things mentioned.

 

#4) Maps and super weapons. Is there a spot I can see at this moment to see which maps have the supers on? I have to write these things down on the sticky notes, besides the 3 mentioned above.

 

#5) Map repairs. I have noticed a few scouts frozen. I cannot remember if it's certain maps. I really do wish xwis would enable/reveal the map name during loading. It will help me alot.

[FReQuEnZy]

The supers are put on randomly on any map. So everyone finds them out by chance, enjoy the suprises.

Most modern RTS games show the map about to be played, so yeah I agree that XWIS should show this as well.

[ZiGZaG]

 
Then the lower tier players should learn... That's like saying that lower tier sovs win a lot more because they can use desolators, but the same tier allied don't know how to stop them, by legionaire, jets, rockies, few tanks... It's true though. Sovs are just easier.

I've won 2v1 as allied vs 2 sovs with sw on. Just takes a bit of spying and making sure the opponent can't get close enough to your base to use it properly, they either have to keep moving or stop and recieve heavy damage and if they manage to get to your base just use legionaires to protect buildings and keep units at a reasonable distance. I learned all these things the hard way, by losing. The same would apply to any lower tier players.

You talk about a rush for the IC every game, but you can't understand why the oldskool players don't like defcon 6 anymore.
1. It's always a sell mcv rush game.
2. Unfair spots.
3. It's stale and lame. 
 
 

If you've ever played any actual top players like Awaz or W0nna then you'd realize that allied factions are simply over powered on that map.
The allies can control the air and the sea with ease. Stopping sovs from getting oils/killing engies, attacking buildings from the sea, allied mobility.

Blitzen wasn't supposed to be in there. Too much copy n paste in the middle of class.

Alamo b sovs vs allied is like urban rush avs, sovs are just too strong on small maps. You can only defend your base for so long against a good sov, if you have good micro, it has been determined before that it should be mirrored and infact it was set as that before the settings went afk.

Instead of going into detail for the sake of not wasting time and sanity, the maps I mentioned have been considered as Allied maps since the beginning of time.
A good allied player will slap any good sov on them due to better suited unit abilities for the allied faction and this is mainly noticeable when you're playing a evenly matched opponent.
 
 
I think you're over exaggerating as I did just mention the maps that I believe to have the strong imbalances. So, don't be daft and pay attention.
I do agree to having a slight temperament as you put it.
 
I can agree to the comment about QM to a small degree due to the previous comment I made, but it should be your playstyle or styles that make the game fun, not the imbalances.
For example when I got bored of standard sovs while playing QM years ago, I started splitting in every game I could and guess what? I had more fun then ever before and I started winning more. The most amusing part was when players complained about it and said that I play like a coward or a lamer. xD
 
 
 
Yes, really. My tanks got stuck on it many times as well. I noticed in the map editor that there's plenty of cliff errors all over the map, so if you can't make perfect cliffs don't ask your maps to be put in QM as they won't work as they should. Your map should be removed until fixes are implemented.
 


Because the server owner thinks that the game can't be patched, due to the lack of source code.
Basically he wants to fix everything instead of what can be fixed now.

This is a discussion, the negtive comments arent needed, further comments of this nature will be removed. Try to discuss without being so aggressive, i merely asked questions, there is no need for comments like dont be daft etc. 

 

Regardless if you have won 1 vs 10 you cannot use your own skill level as an example, these changes have to suit the majority of player's, for mirror matches i dont see a big imbalance in defcon 6, i still think the alamo isnt really about the faction, i just think the map is dreadfully imbalanced personally. 

 

I think some of your changes just seem a little too much, i enjoy playing some of the situations you have mentioned and so do many other's, i dont think the game need's a dramatic upheaval, it just needs some tweaking imo.

[AlliedPlayer]

O'Really?

 

It's nice that this map can stick grizzly whilst attacking

Good it didn't stucked your rockies whilst flying and your ships whilst surfing.

 

Here, i waypoint 30 dogs and IFVs around the whole map an none of them stopped..

 

A.pngB.pngC.jpgD.pngE.pngF.pngG.pngH.pngI.png

 

Nice story bro, maybe it's Marko or something.

 

 

 

 

yes that map still has error / glitches, and has been proven by playing it a few times ( i will never pick a known glitchy map in custom game as it ruins the game - but if / when i get it in qm, i just have to deal with it, it has nothing to do with "marko")

 

i could livestream / record it, but just take my word, my dogs are always waypointed at beginning of game, and they get stuck / stop at bottom of hills in the trenches as theyre about to go back out of the trenches. i would hope this is fixed before a map is entered into the QM pool - especially if a new map made by someone from the community!!!! (my opinion of course) 

[BornL33T]

 
Yes, really. My tanks got stuck on it many times as well. I noticed in the map editor that there's plenty of cliff errors all over the map, so if you can't make perfect cliffs don't ask your maps to be put in QM as they won't work as they should. Your map should be removed until fixes are implemented.

 

I've tryied my best Mr.Prerfect and it was the first map i've made, i still think it is playable and has 1 glitch at max i've not noticed, if u got a prove show it.

SV is a glitchy map and u played it tons of times, why shouldn't it be removed until fixed? See, even WestWood studio can make glitched maps.

 

I dunno if someone else share my opinion or no but i think you would never like anything whatever it's perfectness, just complaining all the time and trying force ur view, maybe next time u will come with something like 'the moon isn't cool and it should be made other way'.

[AlliedPlayer]

I've tryied my best Mr.Prerfect and it was the first map i've made, i still think it is playable and has 1 glitch at max i've not noticed, if u got a prove show it.

SV is a glitchy map and u played it tons of times, why shouldn't it be removed until fixed? See, even WestWood studio can make glitched maps.

 

I dunno if someone else share my opinion or no but i think you would never like anything whatever it's perfectness, just complaining all the time and trying force ur view, maybe next time u will come with something like 'the moon isn't cool and it should be made other way'.

 

 

I am not criticising you by the way, just the map has glitches on the hills - I didn't even know you made it - I was just saying, so that it could improve EVERYONE'S experience on that map. 

[Rocker219]

sorviegn avs is imbalanced.

 

Even if allies moves to mid the soviet will get power up faster and conscripts up faster which in turn makes the soviet have the buildings garrisoned faster. or lets just pretend that the allies doesn't move. the soviet moves. camps holds mid. the player not moving is forced to defend two impossible places while the soviet just controls middle.

 

Honestly ide like to see more maps where there is early pressure without having it be a sell mcv scenario. Or im always in favor of bigger maps. Heck is a great example. I think Malibu is a great example. but those maps need fixing.

 

My favorite big maps are morning tide and divide and conquer. those maps are so fun. And I think snow valley is considered a medium map but ive always loved that.

Edited by Rocker219, 20 November 2013 - 05:08 PM.