77 replies to this topic

[ZiGZaG]

This topic is being created so that you can have your say on the recent changes to the yr qm scene, changes where made to try and fix the previous sitaution, while they may not have been to everyone's taste i felt it was slightly improved, however my opinion alone is worth nothing, if there was map's/situations etc you disagree with please post any comments and thoughts you have hear and we will discuss and make changes where applicable.

 

Thanks.

 

YR QM Maps & Settings 2013 (Proposal)

 

QM of 2009: (mirror match on all)

Tour Of Egypt - AvS

Paris Revisited - AvS, AvY

Deadman's Ridge - AvS

Death Valley Girl - AvS (Supers always on if possible)

Official Tournament Map A - AvS

Pinch Point - AvS

Isle of War - AvS

Meat Grinder - AvS

The Alamo - AvS

DEFCON 6 - AvS

Depth Charge - AvS

Roundhouse Kick - AvS

Stormy Weather - AvS

Lake Blitzen - AvS

May Day - AvS

New Heights - AvS

No Wimps - AvS

Official Tournament Map B - AvS

Snow Valley - AvS

South Pacific - AvS

Tanya's Training Grounds - AvS, AvY

Cold War - AvS

Face Down - AvS

Dry Heat - AvS

Urban Rush - AvS

Blood Feud - All

Dune Patrol - All

Hidden Valley - All

Offense Defense - All

Golden State Fwy - All

Country Swing - All  

Sahara Mirage - All  

Heartland - All - 

Montana DMZ - All 

Hammer and Sickle - All 

 

New Maps & Settings (mirror match on all)

Hail Mary - SvY

Bridging the Gap - AvS, AvY

A Path Beyond II - AvS

Carville's Convoy - AvS

Happy Trails - AvY

Malibu Cliffs - AvS, AvY

Soveriegn Land - AvS, AvY

Twin Peaks - AvS

Valley of Gems - AvS 

Head for the Hills - AvS, AvY

Arena 33 Forever - AvY

Brink of Disaster - AvS, AvY

Lost Lake - AvS

 

^^Updated 25/09/2013^^

 

Dune Patrol , Blood Feud Changed to all matchup's

Soveriegn Land changed from all to AvS and mirror only.

[Seke]

can you make gi's not be dumb?

[kickyou73]

Zig,

 

I posted regarding the new maps but if it's possible lets put dune, blood, dry heat back in for avy and svy.

 

Take out some of bigger new maps and those with loads of oil on.

 

I would want to remove hidden if I played sovs.

 

Thanks

 

Also supers always on yvy.

Edited by kickyou73, 02 September 2013 - 07:30 PM.

[Crisis]

Zig,

 

I posted regarding the new maps but if it's possible lets put dune, blood, dry heat back in for avy and svy.

 

Take out some of bigger new maps and those with loads of oil on.

 

I would want to remove hidden if I played sovs.

 

Thanks

 

Also supers always on yvy.

Only one I agree with is dune and even dune isn't really that fair for avy (I just like playing avy on this map), blood feud is too close with too little resources for allies (can't really comment on sovs) to play vs yuri, dry heat is bad to play against yuri for any faction because the cliffs basically make it impossible to attack even a semi decent yuri player. Supers always on yvy makes sense too, yvy is bad period, without supers it's probably worse. 

[ZiGZaG]

Zig,

 

I posted regarding the new maps but if it's possible lets put dune, blood, dry heat back in for avy and svy.

 

Take out some of bigger new maps and those with loads of oil on.

 

I would want to remove hidden if I played sovs.

 

Thanks

 

Also supers always on yvy.

 

good feedback, i agree blood and dune should go back into qm myself, however these maps are rather difficult for sovs and allies especially for weaker players, this will need to be debated. We reverted to the 2009 set up so we could use trial and error, as for Hidden Valley, it came as one of the standard westwood map's ive never touched any of them personally and believe they should just be left in qm, However we will see what other's say first. Can you be more specific on which "bigger new maps with loads of oils on" you think are bad and why?, random supers for YvY was implemented a long time ago although from my own experience this tends to lead to long campy games, so ill take that under advisement.

Only one I agree with is dune and even dune isn't really that fair for avy (I just like playing avy on this map), blood feud is too close with too little resources for allies (can't really comment on sovs) to play vs yuri, dry heat is bad to play against yuri for any faction because the cliffs basically make it impossible to attack even a semi decent yuri player. Supers always on yvy makes sense too, yvy is bad period, without supers it's probably worse. 

 

I agree with dry heat, i would find myself struggling against player's whom i would normally win easily here the cliff's make magnetrons too powerful and it destoryes economy for sov and allies far too easilly.

[kickyou73]

good feedback, i agree blood and dune should go back into qm myself, however these maps are rather difficult for sovs and allies especially for weaker players, this will need to be debated. We reverted to the 2009 set up so we could use trial and error, as for Hidden Valley, it came as one of the standard westwood map's ive never touched any of them personally and believe they should just be left in qm, However we will see what other's say first. Can you be more specific on which "bigger new maps with loads of oils on" you think are bad and why?, random supers for YvY was implemented a long time ago although from my own experience this tends to lead to long campy games, so ill take that under advisement.

 

I agree with dry heat, i would find myself struggling against player's whom i would normally win easily here the cliff's make magnetrons too powerful and it destoryes economy for sov and allies far too easilly.

It's pretty academic now as there is only one regular yuri player but when I played sovs would man\miner rush on dp and bf, this is very very hard to stop. On dry heat they would deso the gems which is just as affective as magging your miners. Allies have a harder time but with men and planes can do well.

 

Either way the game now only has one yuri player and he as far as I know has never made it to no1 so whats the harm in putting them back?

 

Zigzag may go 90-15 rather than 90-10 but will probably still win each month.

 

I don't really know the names of the new maps but I will have a few games this month and make a list.

Edited by kickyou73, 02 September 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[ZiGZaG]

It's pretty academic now as there is only one regular yuri player but when I played sovs would man\miner rush on dp and bf, this is very very hard to stop. On dry heat they would deso the gems which is just as affective as magging your miners. Allies have a harder time but with men and planes can do well.

 

Either way the game now only has one yuri player and he as far as I know has never made it to no1 so whats the harm in putting them back?

 

Zigzag may go 90-15 rather than 90-10 but will probably still win each month.

 

I don't really know the names of the new maps but I will have a few games this month and make a list.

 

ok thanks.

[ExpaNd]

Dry heat is fine sov vs Yuri!! I've beaten sunny there back when he played a lot! Although I agree its tough unless you are Pr0 but ofcourse kickyou would want AvY and AvY back on dune patrol and blood feud, 2 OP Yuri maps. Other then that everytime I try to Qm no1 is there. So that's the best input you'll get from me!

[ZiGZaG]

Dry heat is far from fine vs yuri as soviet, i think you know this and are just trying to act the big man , why do you feel Yuri is overpowered on these maps? Personally i find it takes a lot more work to keep up with yuri on these maps from a soviet or allied perspective.

[Crisis]

Dry heat is fine sov vs Yuri!! I've beaten sunny there back when he played a lot! Although I agree its tough unless you are Pr0 but ofcourse kickyou would want AvY and AvY back on dune patrol and blood feud, 2 OP Yuri maps. Other then that everytime I try to Qm no1 is there. So that's the best input you'll get from me!

I would rather play avy on dune patrol than dry heat any day of the week...

[AlliedPlayer]

Link to these changes to stop me from looking? 

[kickyou73]

Dry heat is far from fine vs yuri as soviet, i think you know this and are just trying to act the big man , why do you feel Yuri is overpowered on these maps? Personally i find it takes a lot more work to keep up with yuri on these maps from a soviet or allied perspective.

Whats happened to todays sovs?

 

If you need reminding what happened when the best sov met the best yuri on dry heat and dune (and sunny both miner glitched and used map hack) please see below.

 

Dry heat here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvvc4IkD0o0

Dune patrol part1 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2jEdihQFM

Dune patrol part2 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWaIjKwN1uY

[ZiGZaG]

Whats happened to todays sovs?

 

If you need reminding what happened when the best sov met the best yuri on dry heat and dune (and sunny both miner glitched and used map hack) please see below.

 

Dry heat here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvvc4IkD0o0

Dune patrol part1 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2jEdihQFM

Dune patrol part2 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWaIjKwN1uY

 

this isnt a good example, you are comparing marko (possibly the best sov to date) against a cheater who sat in his base miner glitching and is nowhere near marko's ability level, this doesnt show the ability and advantages Yuri' has on that map, Then the Dune Patrol game, i can honestly say you wont find that many players who can micro that well in order to win, you cant compare the best vs the best, you have got to look at it from a lower level of ability. 9/10 players cant play to marko's level and putting them in that situation isnt a good idea, it makes the game less attractive to them trust me i remember this,

 

Personally i remember when i got Dune and blood in qm before i got decent vs yuri, i used to think oh here we go this will be a nightmare, because in order to win u gotta work 10x as hard as the yuri player. You fail to realise even if you are 3 or 4 times better than the Yuri player u run such a much higher risk of losing than you would vs an allied or sov player, this is why most dont like playing vs the YR faction, we have to try and put it in qm in fair situation's. I think you like it because its very easy for yuri to press or camp here making it difficult for the sov/allied player.

 

Personally for AvY, SvY id have dune in qm again, i wouldnt have DH, and im not sure about blood, but for players in the middle end of the ladder do you honestly think its a good idea?

 

Here's the Link Adam

http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/177867-proposal-for-changes-to-the-yr-qm/

[rumblesom]

zigzags point about taking the mean average skill level as the point of comparison is right imo. The changes are meant to best accommodate as many players as possible

[kickyou73]

this isnt a good example, you are comparing marko (possibly the best sov to date) against a cheater who sat in his base miner glitching and is nowhere near marko's ability level, this doesnt show the ability and advantages Yuri' has on that map, Then the Dune Patrol game, i can honestly say you wont find that many players who can micro that well in order to win, you cant compare the best vs the best, you have got to look at it from a lower level of ability. 9/10 players cant play to marko's level and putting them in that situation isnt a good idea, it makes the game less attractive to them trust me i remember this,

 

Personally i remember when i got Dune and blood in qm before i got decent vs yuri, i used to think oh here we go this will be a nightmare, because in order to win u gotta work 10x as hard as the yuri player. You fail to realise even if you are 3 or 4 times better than the Yuri player u run such a much higher risk of losing than you would vs an allied or sov player, this is why most dont like playing vs the YR faction, we have to try and put it in qm in fair situation's. I think you like it because its very easy for yuri to press or camp here making it difficult for the sov/allied player.

 

Personally for AvY, SvY id have dune in qm again, i wouldnt have DH, and im not sure about blood, but for players in the middle end of the ladder do you honestly think its a good idea?

 

Here's the Link Adam

http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/177867-proposal-for-changes-to-the-yr-qm/

Yes I get the point about Marko but with his cheats sunny was the most successful yuri on xwis and I have watched him get slapped around over and over again by the top allies and sovs.

 

No you don't need to be 3 or 4 times better to beat yuri on those maps as sovs but sitting back and massing choppers is probably not the best idea!

 

If I had to play vs someone like sunny as sovs I would be much happier on bf or dp.

 

Maybe try it the other way round and play yuri on those maps and see if its as easy as you think.

 

Happy to play sovs and help test it if you want?

 

Really depends what the long term goal is, if its stop anyone using yuri then mission accomplished but if you enjoy playing vs yuri then these maps are good fun.

Edited by kickyou73, 03 September 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[ExpaNd]

Marko never played sunny in 06/early 07 I believe, and yes a top Yuri player should win on dune bf and dry heat, but dry heat is just a personal fav, I never minded playing Yuri there.

And if you wanted to compare the best to the best. Then Yuri should win 80% of the time, the only pure sov maps I can think of off the top of my head is golden state freeway, Yuri wouldnt be as bad if they didn't get inf. Money but they do, so Yuri wins vs allies on 3rd wave usually, (ore maps) vs sovs it is kinda even in beginning, then Yuri loses advantage when ic is first made, but in a long campy game they win due to inf money, these factors should be considered when picking maps, now look at these three maps.

Blood feud: hills +trees for magnetron ownage:if Yuri does grinder rush and you go 2.miners its autolose.
Yuri rushes and you go miner its close but Yuri has advantage.
You both play for long game, kind of even until you hear "disc reporting" lol. You basically have to sell after ic.
And if you rush Yuri can camp with bunkers.

Not saying that's how it would play out everytime, but majority of the times it will, and a grinder rush would hurt allied a lot more then a sov who can try to win with desos.

Dune patrol is kind if the same but without hills and too many trees...

Dry heat, Yuri should rape allies here, only chance allies has is to get all the derricks, or use seals etc... An early wave of magnetron lasher+gatling is gg in certain spots, but a very good allied player could hold his own for a while I believe.
Vs sovs, desolators can help a lot and you can get iron curtain real fast, I remember beating reano77's Yuri here as Libya(not saying much) but you just have to engi eat, and play smart, although Yuri gets the advantage here, I think a top sov can win 2 out of 5games here .

That's my input on these maps

[ZiGZaG]

Yes I get the point about Marko but with his cheats sunny was the most successful yuri on xwis and I have watched him get slapped around over and over again by the top allies and sovs.

 

No you don't need to be 3 or 4 times better to beat yuri on those maps as sovs but sitting back and massing choppers is probably not the best idea!

 

If I had to play vs someone like sunny as sovs I would be much happier on bf or dp.

 

Maybe try it the other way round and play yuri on those maps and see if its as easy as you think.

 

Happy to play sovs and help test it if you want?

 

Really depends what the long term goal is, if its stop anyone using yuri then mission accomplished but if you enjoy playing vs yuri then these maps are good fun.

 

Let me make this clear, we reverted to the 2009 setup because anyone who played the game quit because of prep's renovation, yes its not perfect but we are working on it.

 

We have to look at thing's from all 3 sides, i did not say blood and dune where easy for Yuri, i said they where difficult for sov's/allies, The goal is to make it fair and fun for players of all level's.

 

As i stated before i personally like dune and blood vs Yuri, Dry Heat imo is a bad map to play Yuri against due to the cliff's and magnetrons ability exactly like Snow Valley would be, i disagreed with this map for a long time and so did a lot of player's i spoke to, even though i could generally play it fairly well, i could see the problem with it, You have said yourself Yuri is better on smaller map's this is what makes these map's very difficult for sov's/allies, i know from experience in most cases vs a good Yuri player small maps are very difficult. Id be happy to do a few trial run's with you if you like, we can see what the results look like, and take it from there.

 

Another map id like to discuss is hammer and sickle, a lot of player's do not like playing SvY here, personally its one of my favorioute match-up's and imo makes for some great game's however i believe a lot disagree with me, could we get some opinion's on this please?

[ILoveKane]

Good soviet and allied players can beat Yuri on any map, no maps should be excluded. Why should smaller maps be removed? Bigger maps put Yuri at a big disadvantage.

[ZiGZaG]

Good soviet and allied players can beat Yuri on any map, no maps should be excluded. Why should smaller maps be removed? Bigger maps put Yuri at a big disadvantage.

 

Do you actually believe no map's should be excluded? Try DC uprising BR as Sovs Vs TR as Yuri, or otters revenge is auto lose for Yuri, there are certain maps that are just incredibly unfair for both sides.

 

Why do you think bigger map's put yuri at a disadvantage? Try to explain the reasons behind your point if you dont mind.

[kickyou73]

Do you actually believe no map's should be excluded? Try DC uprising BR as Sovs Vs TR as Yuri, or otters revenge is auto lose for Yuri, there are certain maps that are just incredibly unfair for both sides.

 

Why do you think bigger map's put yuri at a disadvantage? Try to explain the reasons behind your point if you dont mind.

He is correct the bigger the map the more yuri is at a disadvantage. The reason is it gives more time for sovs to react and tech for ic and nuke. Scouting a big map is hard going as yuri and many of the big maps have oils which are very hard to get vs an engi eater.

 

Despite how good boomers are I would hate to play vs sovs on hammer and sickle. It's a perfect map for deso camping and spamming choppers.

 

It does seem like the hardest possible maps for yuri have been chosen by Soviet players which is why you are now only down to one yuri player!

 

Your biggest problem is not the maps but lack of activity. If you have no yuri in yuri's revenge then why not just play ra2 where there are 10x the players?

 

You should be doing everything possible to encourage people to play as yuri even if it's on maps that don't suit your play style or have the slightest possibility of losing to someone you are "3x better than".

 

It's one thing to brag yuri bows to you on a map that actually favours sovs and another to earn that right on a map that favours yuri.

[ZiGZaG]

He is correct the bigger the map the more yuri is at a disadvantage. The reason is it gives more time for sovs to react and tech for ic and nuke. Scouting a big map is hard going as yuri and many of the big maps have oils which are very hard to get vs an engi eater.

 

Despite how good boomers are I would hate to play vs sovs on hammer and sickle. It's a perfect map for deso camping and spamming choppers.

 

It does seem like the hardest possible maps for yuri have been chosen by Soviet players which is why you are now only down to one yuri player!

 

Your biggest problem is not the maps but lack of activity. If you have no yuri in yuri's revenge then why not just play ra2 where there are 10x the players?

 

You should be doing everything possible to encourage people to play as yuri even if it's on maps that don't suit your play style or have the slightest possibility of losing to someone you are "3x better than".

 

It's one thing to brag yuri bows to you on a map that actually favours sovs and another to earn that right on a map that favours yuri.

 

for SvY u say the bigger the map the more yuri is at a disadvantage, guess what... the smaller the map the more sovs are at a disadvantage, you fail to realise that Yuri's Units, economy, and ability to camp far outwiegh that of soviet's. Yes Scouting is harder on a big map and yes Yuri will struggle to gain oils, but you have just pointed out Yuri's 2 main weakness's and none of his strengths. Camping is harder for soviet's on a small map, managing your economy becomes harder on a small map,  Even with those weakness's Yuri will always remain the strongest faction.

 

I dont understand why you would disagree with hammer and sickle as a yuri player, the majority of sov's are the one's who complain about it. However i would say its a pretty even map, yuri dominating the naval aspect, and sovs having the ability to tech and camp.

 

You should be doing everything possible to encourage people to play as yuri even if it's on maps that don't suit your play style or have the slightest possibility of losing to someone you are "3x better than".

 

I completely disagree with this, i saw so many player's leave because prep's renovation put ridicolously unfair situations in qm, no-one wants to play a game where the map decides the victor before it has begun. I dont mind losing if i lose on even grounds, i do however, find it frustrating when i lose because the map is incredibly imbalanced. That reason is why the small community YR had compeltely died off once Prep's renovation came into place. With what player's are left the ability level is obviously decreasing, if you throw ridicolously unfair situation's into qm players will lose interest and continue to leave.

 

Id also appreciate if you stopped having a go at me personally, im doing nothing but trying to find an accomodating situation for everyone and id appreciate your help rather than your negative comments.

[kickyou73]

for SvY u say the bigger the map the more yuri is at a disadvantage, guess what... the smaller the map the more sovs are at a disadvantage, you fail to realise that Yuri's Units, economy, and ability to camp far outwiegh that of soviet's. Yes Scouting is harder on a big map and yes Yuri will struggle to gain oils, but you have just pointed out Yuri's 2 main weakness's and none of his strengths. Camping is harder for soviet's on a small map, managing your economy becomes harder on a small map,  Even with those weakness's Yuri will always remain the strongest faction.

 

I dont understand why you would disagree with hammer and sickle as a yuri player, the majority of sov's are the one's who complain about it. However i would say its a pretty even map, yuri dominating the naval aspect, and sovs having the ability to tech and camp.

 

You should be doing everything possible to encourage people to play as yuri even if it's on maps that don't suit your play style or have the slightest possibility of losing to someone you are "3x better than".

 

I completely disagree with this, i saw so many player's leave because prep's renovation put ridicolously unfair situations in qm, no-one wants to play a game where the map decides the victor before it has begun. I dont mind losing if i lose on even grounds, i do however, find it frustrating when i lose because the map is incredibly imbalanced. That reason is why the small community YR had compeltely died off once Prep's renovation came into place. With what player's are left the ability level is obviously decreasing, if you throw ridicolously unfair situation's into qm players will lose interest and continue to leave.

 

Id also appreciate if you stopped having a go at me personally, im doing nothing but trying to find an accomodating situation for everyone and id appreciate your help rather than your negative comments.

Zig I have nothing against you personally but the perception is you are only accomodating yourself and your faction.

 

You did ask so I will leave you with it.

[ZiGZaG]

Im trying to find a happy medium, that is all. Im not dismissing your idea's or opinion's merely trying to discuss them.

 

Every map be it in qm already or not is open for discussion, thats the whole point.

[ExpaNd]

If you can bring up archived topics as an admin, I have a proposal a while back that was pretty solid. Look it up

[dsector]

^ http://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/153650-here-is-my-final-proposal/