27 replies to this topic

[fir3w0rx]

Theoretically, in terms of credits, I believe that each standard oil derrick is equivalent to approx.(approximately) 1/3 of a miner(War or Chrono) harvesting ore/gold. To prove this, let us do an experiment...

NOTE:
An ore-filled War Miner = 1000 credits
An ore-filled Chrono Miner = 500 credits

Play a map, preferrably in single-player skirmish mode, that has at least one oil derrick and capture only one oil derrick. Make sure that your only income is coming from this derrick. Take a note of exactly how much cash you currently have. Now, with an empty miner, begin harvesting the nearest ore/gold. If you were using a Soviet Miner, by the time your miner gets to the ore patch, fills itself up, returns to your refinery and is about to unload, you will notice that your oil derrick has accumulated less than 333 credits (aprrox. 1/3 of 1000). If you were using an Allied Miner, just before it chrono-shifts back, your oil derrick should have accumulated less than 166 credits (approx. 1/3 of 500)

As shown above, each time a miner gathers a full load of ore (either 1000 or 500), an oil derrick will only have generated less than 1/3 of this load, which actually suggests that an oil derrick is equivalent to less than 1/3 of a miner. But taking into account the following...

• distance to/from ore (when the nearest ore is finished, the miner will have to travel even further)
• distance to next ore patch once current patch is finished
• miners getting in each others way
• miners having to wait for each other to finish unloading
• and several other factors that can happen during a match

...by the time a full load of ore has been harvested, an oil derrick will actually have generated an equivalent of approx. 1/3 of this.

Therefore, suppose that your only source of income were standard oil derricks, to generate the same amount of credits as 1 miner, you will need approx. 3 oil derricks. In other words, 1 oil derrick = 1/3 miner.

Feel free to comment or correct me if you believe that my mathematics is incorrect.

[DryFeet]

.............so?

[rumblesom]

hehe thats quite an experiment!

well in the scenario you describe I would agree that the oil equates to roughly 1/3 the income of a miner on gold, but I would still argue the nature of their production is worth considering. An oil generates credits at a fixed rate with no maintenance, while miners require at least some supervision.

Perhaps 1 miner on a non-depleted ore field is equivalent to 3x the production of 1 oil derrick; but id say before long, 3 oils would badly outstrip a lone miner.

[fir3w0rx]

.............so?

This was actually in response to another topic, but wasn't really related, and also I thought it might help people understand why they have too much or too little money in-game.

but I would still argue the nature of their production is worth considering. An oil generates credits at a fixed rate with no maintenance, while miners require at least some supervision.

Perhaps 1 miner on a non-depleted ore field is equivalent to 3x the production of 1 oil derrick; but id say before long, 3 oils would badly outstrip a lone miner.

True, I forgot to mention production - 1 miner costs 1400 (or 2000 for a refinery), but a derrick only costs 500. Also, capturing a derrick initially gives you +500 (minus cost of engi), which is why it may seem like more than 1/3 of a miner. Well, you probably know more about this game than me, so I don't really wanna defend my POV much further , and besides, with sooo many different factors to consider, this topic is waaay too complicated, if not impossible to prove or disprove.

Edited by Fireworks, 17 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[YelIowish]

Take 1 oil, wait 5 mins, count incomes.
Destroy oil, start mining, wait 5 mins, count.

In Adam's topic i was talking about 0 miners to protect the oil derrick. So +1000$ when you take it doesn't matter in this case.

Edited by Yellowwish, 17 March 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[irag]

.............so?

you're so rude.

@ Fireworks : thanks for the expirement. its important in some maps with Derricks, so you know how to expand your army properly while mainting production. ^.^

Edited by Skarfai, 17 March 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[fir3w0rx]

you're so rude.

@ Fireworks : thanks for the expirement. its important in some maps with Derricks, so you know how to expand your army properly while mainting production. ^.^

Don't worry about it, I'm used to it. I appreciate it though

[tbiol]

Chrono Miner vs oil derrick

Scenerio #1: Ore Refinery Placed below oil field, miner was left to mine (no miner control) Overall production over a 5 minute time span netted: $10,000 (with a standard deviation of +/- 500 due to a single drop)

Scenerio #2: Ore Refinery Placed above oil field, miner was controlled to specific areas to mine (as someone has said in the past, 'to big ore'. Overall production over a 5 minute time span netted $11,000 (standard devition of +/- 500 for a single drop)

Scenerio #3 A single oil derrick was captured. Overall production over a 5 minute time span netted $3,700 (+/- 60 for 2 cycles vs time)

Meaning the overall difference over a 5 minute span of miner control vs uncontrolled miner = $1,000 / initial 5 minutes of mining an ore patch, after 5 minutes ore patch is depleted enough where the 2 will equal each other

Controlled miner vs oil derrick is at 1/3 of production as stated earlier
Uncontrolled miner vs oil drrick is at 37% of production

I would say that an oil derrick would range somewhere in between 30-37% of a single miner.

Edited by tbiol, 17 March 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[fir3w0rx]

Yay, someone actually agrees with me^^ (close enough to 33.333...% anyway)

[tbiol]

Soviet Miner vs Oil Derrick

Scenerio #1 Uncontrolled soviet miner with ore refinery above ore field. Net gain after 5 minutes of mining is $10,000

Scenerio #2 Controlled soviet miner with ore refinery below ore field. Net gain after 5 minutes of controlled mining is $11,000

seems familiar.

The real difference for miner control vs uncontrolled miner comes at the 3 minute mark, this is where the $1,000 separation occurs, after this an ore field is depleted enough that controlling the miner begins to matter less.

I guess what we can derive from this is. For a soviet, a single miner only needs to be told where to mine 6 times, before it can be left alone to mine on its own
An allied mining the same field would have to control it 12 times. This however, can get thrown out the window, if a soviet builds another refinery, in the spot where the ore was already mined to make mining closer again.

I think this should bring out another experiment. How much actual ore is mined in a pick up? Because if an allied miner picks up as much ore as a soviet miner, an allied player would technically waste 1/2 of an ore field, if he never had an ore purifier.

Edited by tbiol, 17 March 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[fir3w0rx]

I think this should bring out another experiment. How much actual ore is mined in a pick up? Because if an allied miner picks up as much ore as a soviet miner, an allied player would technically waste 1/2 of an ore field, if he never had an ore purifier.

me no understand.

[rumblesom]

no allied trucks pick up half as much per load

[tbiol]

I was going with a thought, like does the soviet miner just hold more ore per load, or is it more effecient.

It just holds more ore.

[ZiGZaG]

Theoretically, in terms of credits, I believe that each standard oil derrick is equivalent to approx.(approximately) 1/3 of a miner(War or Chrono) harvesting ore/gold. To prove this, let us do an experiment...

NOTE:
An ore-filled War Miner = 1000 credits
An ore-filled Chrono Miner = 500 credits

Play a map, preferrably in single-player skirmish mode, that has at least one oil derrick and capture only one oil derrick. Make sure that your only income is coming from this derrick. Take a note of exactly how much cash you currently have. Now, with an empty miner, begin harvesting the nearest ore/gold. If you were using a Soviet Miner, by the time your miner gets to the ore patch, fills itself up, returns to your refinery and is about to unload, you will notice that your oil derrick has accumulated less than 333 credits (aprrox. 1/3 of 1000). If you were using an Allied Miner, just before it chrono-shifts back, your oil derrick should have accumulated less than 166 credits (approx. 1/3 of 500)

As shown above, each time a miner gathers a full load of ore (either 1000 or 500), an oil derrick will only have generated less than 1/3 of this load, which actually suggests that an oil derrick is equivalent to less than 1/3 of a miner. But taking into account the following...

• distance to/from ore (when the nearest ore is finished, the miner will have to travel even further)
• distance to next ore patch once current patch is finished
• miners getting in each others way
• miners having to wait for each other to finish unloading
• and several other factors that can happen during a match

...by the time a full load of ore has been harvested, an oil derrick will actually have generated an equivalent of approx. 1/3 of this.

Therefore, suppose that your only source of income were standard oil derricks, to generate the same amount of credits as 1 miner, you will need approx. 3 oil derricks. In other words, 1 oil derrick = 1/3 miner.

Feel free to comment or correct me if you believe that my mathematics is incorrect.

Yea i already knew this ^^ however i believe the oil's on the alamo produce a higher rate of cash than most?

[rumblesom]

I guess the bottom line for me is, I'd take 3 oils over 1 miner any day

[AD4M]

well done fireworks, i totally agree with u.

but remember some oils are more valuable than others - alamo for example.

but i agree, i prefer to have 1 miner than 1 oil

[fir3w0rx]

well done fireworks, i totally agree with u.

but remember some oils are more valuable than others - alamo for example.

but i agree, i prefer to have 1 miner than 1 oil

Thx. Yeah, The Alamo oils are equal to 2 + 1/2 standard oils.

Don't you mean "1 miner than 3 oils"?

[Psychic]

ha well i would agree with him wanting 1 miner over 1 oil, especially after these experiments

[OlafxD]

rocketeers can fly fast, engineers cant!

Edited by Tomi, 18 March 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[lukke]

well done fireworks, i totally agree with u.

but remember some oils are more valuable than others - alamo for example.

but i agree, i prefer to have 1 miner than 1 oil

are there any other then bottom right on alamo?

[fir3w0rx]

are there any other then bottom right on alamo?

All 3 derricks on The Alamo generate 50 at a time instead of 20.

[lukke]

ahh o thx, any other maps?

[Ezer2000]

Here is good guide, exept for a bit incorrect information: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/924479-ea-games-collection/faqs/9421

...........
Both are generally different in length.
+-------------------------------+
|Some useful Discoveries on Time|
+-------------------------------+
The superweapon countdown is like an in-game timer which we can use to time
events in RA2. Through using this timer I have come up with some useful
discoveries which might be helpful.
1. It takes about 100 seconds on average for harvesters to mine $1000 worth of
credits from yellow ore and about 50 seconds on average for harvesters to mine
$1000 worth of credits from multicoloured ore. (We assume at least one refinery
built directly adjacent the ore)
2. It takes one minute (60 seconds) for an oil derrick (tech building) to
produce $200 worth of credits.
3. Money is spent at the rate of 25 credits/sec on every unit or structure
being built at any one time. That rate increases by 25% for every additional
structure building the same thing.
4. To spend out of one category continuously throughout battle (eg. on tanks)
without falling into economic recession you need 3 harvesters mining yellow ore
or 2 harvesters mining multicoloured ore. When there is one extra structure
building out of that category you need 4 harvesters mining yellow ore or 2
harvesters mining multicoloured ore.
5. It takes 3 oil derricks to produce the same amount of credits as one
harvester does mining yellow ore and 6 oil derricks to produce the same amount
of credits as one harvester does mining multicoloured ore.
6. The cost ratio between any two units or structures tells us how many we can
buy of each for the same price.
Examples:
a) tesla tank : rhino tank = $1200 
........

[fir3w0rx]

ahh o thx, any other maps?

Not in qm no.

Here is good guide, exept for a bit incorrect information: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/924479-ea-games-collection/faqs/9421

Wow, nice guide. They^ were only ahead of me by about 9 years, not much.

[YelIowish]

Nice Tbiol!

Of course it's better to have 1 miner than 1 oil, BUT...

Soviet can go 2-3 tanks and miner and he's able to destroy oil derrick and have the same amount of miners (losing about 2 drops, but keeping his own oil derrick and usually forcing allies to make 1-2 pillboxes).

My conclusion: S₀\/ F^T\/\/.