Jump to content


Photo

Standard maps balanced out


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 GGsMate

GGsMate

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 159 posts

Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:00 PM

I made some changes to a number of official maps which I considered unfair. The maps are now much more balanced and enjoyable in my eyes.

The changes I made are based on my multiplayer experience. Of course there is a chance that you will see things different and will not enjoy my versions of the maps. Please note that my changes are merely a proposal of what could be done to make the maps more even for all spots, I'm open to any suggestions.

My hope is that we can discuss this topic until the major part of the community agrees on which changes could / should be done and maybe olaf would include them in his new patch.

Here are the maps. New positions were marked with a red square.

DC Urspring

Posted Image
  • Placed a second airport, which can be taken by br and bl
  • Added some gems not too far away from the new airport
  • Both players should have the same chances to get the mid gems by stretching from both airports now
  • Added a small amount of gems for tl since all other spots start off with gems now
  • Removed depot to prevent tr from stretching to mid gems directly
Montana DMZ

Posted Image
  • Removed Airport
  • Flattened ground on the right side so that br and tr can build / move mcv directly to gems
Lake Blitzen

Posted Image
  • Moved bl spawn closer to gems
  • Added an airport for top
Little Big Lake

Posted Image
  • Removed gems on the cliff (top) and placed them near the mcv spawn
  • Adjusted gems amount to 7000 for both spots
Golden State Freeway

Posted Image
  • Moved top gems closer to the derrick (same amount)
Pinch Point

Posted Image
  • Added a second ore field on the left. Both sides have exactly the same amount of ore now
El Dorado

Posted Image
  • Removed depot
The Alamo

Posted Image
  • Replaced the airport by an oil derrick
  • Moved the Alamo closer to the top. Both players will be able to reach it at the same time now.
  • Moved gems a bit closer to the top
Anytown America

Posted Image
  • Removed water and some trees on the top cliff, moved tr spawn closer to the cliff, tr can reach gems as easily as bl now
  • Removed gems below the cliff on top and inceased the amount of gems on the cliff, total gems amount remains unchanged
  • Flattened ground on the cliff, moving mcv from tl is now easier
  • Placed a hospital on top, which can be captured to place a ref near gems. Moved br hospital closer to gems
  • Replaced bridges at tr by roads to prevent tr from camping by destroying bridges
Hammer & Sickle

Posted Image
  • Fixed bridge repair bug
  • Tr has less gems now, tl and bl have an easier access to gems
I've packed all maps in one archive so you can try them out yourselves.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0Q49M8AS
Have fun!

Edited by Lenin, 12 December 2011 - 02:10 AM.


#2 DrVanNostrand

DrVanNostrand

    Colonel

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5114 posts

Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:04 PM

very nice

#3 noobLit

noobLit

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:24 AM

Excellent!

Except the download link....... Seems to only want me to download Google Chrome.

Edited by tsstruck0, 12 December 2011 - 12:27 AM.


#4 GGsMate

GGsMate

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 159 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:37 AM

Excellent!

Except the download link....... Seems to only want me to download Google Chrome.


It doesn't let me upload the archive to the board.
Try this one: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0Q49M8AS

EDIT: Hammer & Sickle now has some changes too

Edited by Lenin, 12 December 2011 - 02:11 AM.


#5 lukke

lukke

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1212 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:31 AM

Im on work computer atm. Will try em tonight. Seems great, we should try em out and replace the old ones im qm.

Edited by lukke03, 12 December 2011 - 11:32 AM.


#6 volkots

volkots

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts
  • XWIS Name: n/a

Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:51 AM

Maybe someone wanna come to xwis now and try these maps?

#7 ExpaNd

ExpaNd

    RanDoMiZer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3828 posts
  • Location:Merrillville, IN
  • XWIS Name: ExpaNd

Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:19 PM

Question about dmz! I was always told left side had more money, with the removal of the airport have both sides been balanced money wise?

#8 GGsMate

GGsMate

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 159 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:46 PM

Question about dmz! I was always told left side had more money, with the removal of the airport have both sides been balanced money wise?

Well, the left side has 2800 credits more than the right side. I don't think that will make a big difference once all ore and gems are mined and spent on tanks. It's no big deal to balance that out though if it's necessary.

Maybe someone wanna come to xwis now and try these maps?

I'll be glad to try them with you when I get back home. That would be around 9 PM board time.

Edited by Lenin, 12 December 2011 - 02:49 PM.


#9 rumblesom

rumblesom

    Captain

  • Strike Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4992 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:38 PM

Removing the para on dmz is a bad idea imo. the extra cash and town of garrisons on L is a good balance; but more importantly, the paradrop is part of the gameplay on that map- its an important element of what makes the map interesting. Removing the paradrop, making exactly even the cash and flattening Rside access to gems will significantly change the way the map plays- and reduce its complexity. Considering DMZ has been a favorite for a long time, I dont think its necessary to change it.

I think the changes to hammer may also unduely change the map gameplay- and i think may actually make the map less balanced. Under this configuration, I think bl now has a great advantage. The fact that the gems are reasonably close by, and that you can strech even closer (2nd ore patch is immediatly beside mcv) means that BL can now efficiently collect gems without moving their mcv (no delay). In addition, they can still enjoy an easy anti-scout and tremendous security of their eco. They will also have 2 ore patches (1 very large) to continue tech development without relocating. TL too, will have this same advantage of nearby gems without moving mcv, but without the same degree of eco security. Overall, I would say these changes go too far to rebalance what I think may be a simpler problem.

For the alamo, again I'd have to say I feel the airport/derrick asymetry adds complexity to the gameplay- but I do feel the br oil too greatly impacts the outcome. To rebalance this map, I would suggest reducing the income rate of the br oil to that a regular derrick and perhaps moving it closer to tl (while also moving the tech airport closer to bl). Regarding the arrangement of the alamo and gems- this layout allows B to lose the garrison and still strech and collect at mid, while T cannot do this. I feel the gems must be placed on either side of the alamo, just as in the original- this balances the angles for attack. It does appear however that under this layout, if both players strech toward the alamo, top should place their barracks 2-3 cells closer than B. If so, then the alamo could be moved downward slightly, so it is exactly centered. But even then, the two nearby garrisons of T (by the derrick) will have much greater influence than those of B, which might offer a different unfair advantage. At this point the map would play quite differently, but I'm not convinced it would be for the worse- some testing could check this.

For GSF- why not also move the west derrick closer to T? Bl captures it in plenty of time, so they can afford to have it be slightly further away. That way, all spawns could place their first refinery off the E/W oils. It would also put more pressure on bl who currently enjoys the luxery of being able to make a conscript before engineer and still capture in time. Other imbalances include the relative nearness of bm gems to the south oil- while the north oil is much further away. Here, I'd be inclined to make the tm gems more accessible from the north oil, rather than distancing the bm gems. Another minor imbalance is the height difference between the ore at tl, br spots. The ore of br is elevated by 2 cells and placed in such a way as to leave it a fair distance from the refinery. The tl ore is sunk only 1 cell and placed such that a 2nd refinery can soon be set directly beside the remaining ore. I think its too insignificant to address, but I do believe it was factored into the original balance consideration for this map.

For Lake Blitzen, moving the bl spawn is probably a good idea, but it still appears as tho T is closer. If the the Bl spawn is moved, then I think both the L side derrick and bl ore should be moved as well. The oil needs to be placed so that it is a virtual lock that L side captures it- if bl spawn is too far away that might not be the case. Also, there are some elevated ground patches surrounding the new bl spawn, perhaps those should be revised slightly so streching upward to the ore and westward toward the gems is easier. As for the second airport- I agree of course that 1 each is more symetrical, but an additional paradrop will affect the gameplay experience- under some 'no eat' arrangements the paradrop is to be left uncaptured- I might favor removing the bottom airport ahead of adding a second one to T.

On pinch point- how did you verify that each side now has exactly the same starting ore? It really appears the Lside has more. Also, I like the idea of placing the new ore on a plateau- but I think it should be 3 cells high, as the sinkholes are all 3 cells deep.

I'm interested to see how the changes on dc uprising work- such a nice map but badly imbalanced at the moment..
Hmm, I dont see the gems you've added near the new airport- are they shown on this picture? Regarding the new gems at tl- that spawn is still closest to the rich courtyard and has some gems near their airport, pending the amount of gems to the 2nd airport I might opt to offer tl a smaller amount. Also, TR now seems supremely overpowered- imagine starting gems + gems from 1st airport + gems from tech depot and more gems from the new 2nd airport (if they dont agree to no eat). How can Bl compete?

Thank you for making these edits- and for your qm videos :) I hope you don't mind my criticism- the changes reflect you gave the issues some thought- I'm just trying to do the same :)

#10 noobLit

noobLit

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:19 PM

I must be doing something wrong.

I downloaded the maps.rar file and placed it in the ra2 folder where the other maps are (i.e. I see heck LvL and RvR is in the same folder) but the maps don't show up in game.

#11 volkots

volkots

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts
  • XWIS Name: n/a

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:24 PM

to tsstruck0
extract file "maps.rar" to ra2 folder.

#12 JonasAKAFaze

JonasAKAFaze

    The BH Master

  • Bounty Hunters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1251 posts
  • Location:Denmark
  • XWIS Name: Faze

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:29 PM

Interesting read, Josh! :)

#13 noobLit

noobLit

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:39 PM

Thanks, I have never dealt with rar files before. I didn't realized they were compressed and needed to be extracted. My comp didn't have a program to open these files, so I had to download a rar file opener from cnet to extract the files.

#14 GGsMate

GGsMate

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 159 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:19 PM

Removing the para on dmz is a bad idea imo. the extra cash and town of garrisons on L is a good balance; but more importantly, the paradrop is part of the gameplay on that map- its an important element of what makes the map interesting. Removing the paradrop, making exactly even the cash and flattening Rside access to gems will significantly change the way the map plays- and reduce its complexity. Considering DMZ has been a favorite for a long time, I dont think its necessary to change it.

I've always felt that the map is unfair for bl because tr can rush with first 3 tanks + para as fodder and would most likely win.
That's why I thought it would be a good Idea to remove the airport. After I removed it, I realized that tr cannot build to the gems anymore without moving mcv so I decided to flatten the surface.
What do you think of leaving the map it's original state and giving L a para as well?

I think the changes to hammer may also unduely change the map gameplay- and i think may actually make the map less balanced. Under this configuration, I think bl now has a great advantage. The fact that the gems are reasonably close by, and that you can strech even closer (2nd ore patch is immediatly beside mcv) means that BL can now efficiently collect gems without moving their mcv (no delay). In addition, they can still enjoy an easy anti-scout and tremendous security of their eco. They will also have 2 ore patches (1 very large) to continue tech development without relocating. TL too, will have this same advantage of nearby gems without moving mcv, but without the same degree of eco security. Overall, I would say these changes go too far to rebalance what I think may be a simpler problem.

I have to disagree about the anti-scout statement for BL. Since BL will have to stretch to gems now, they will no longer be able to place a centry right at the entrance. That was my main goal when placing the gems there. I do comprehend the other arguements though. To be honest, H & S was just an experiment, I'm not even sure if it needs to be balanced. My main goal for that map was to remove the bridge repair bug in the first place.

For the alamo, again I'd have to say I feel the airport/derrick asymetry adds complexity to the gameplay- but I do feel the br oil too greatly impacts the outcome. To rebalance this map, I would suggest reducing the income rate of the br oil to that a regular derrick and perhaps moving it closer to tl (while also moving the tech airport closer to bl). Regarding the arrangement of the alamo and gems- this layout allows B to lose the garrison and still strech and collect at mid, while T cannot do this. I feel the gems must be placed on either side of the alamo, just as in the original- this balances the angles for attack. It does appear however that under this layout, if both players strech toward the alamo, top should place their barracks 2-3 cells closer than B. If so, then the alamo could be moved downward slightly, so it is exactly centered. But even then, the two nearby garrisons of T (by the derrick) will have much greater influence than those of B, which might offer a different unfair advantage. At this point the map would play quite differently, but I'm not convinced it would be for the worse- some testing could check this.

I think both players should be able to stretch to the gems with the same effort. I could be wrong though. This is something that needs to be tested online, as the AI is not the best testing partner here. We can have some games on that map if you like to try it out.

For GSF- why not also move the west derrick closer to T? Bl captures it in plenty of time, so they can afford to have it be slightly further away. That way, all spawns could place their first refinery off the E/W oils. It would also put more pressure on bl who currently enjoys the luxery of being able to make a conscript before engineer and still capture in time. Other imbalances include the relative nearness of bm gems to the south oil- while the north oil is much further away. Here, I'd be inclined to make the tm gems more accessible from the north oil, rather than distancing the bm gems. Another minor imbalance is the height difference between the ore at tl, br spots. The ore of br is elevated by 2 cells and placed in such a way as to leave it a fair distance from the refinery. The tl ore is sunk only 1 cell and placed such that a 2nd refinery can soon be set directly beside the remaining ore. I think its too insignificant to address, but I do believe it was factored into the original balance consideration for this map.

The only thing i considered quite unfair about this map was the fact that B always gets 3 gem fields while T only has 2. The other stuff does not really affect the balance in my eyes.

For Lake Blitzen, moving the bl spawn is probably a good idea, but it still appears as tho T is closer. If the the Bl spawn is moved, then I think both the L side derrick and bl ore should be moved as well. The oil needs to be placed so that it is a virtual lock that L side captures it- if bl spawn is too far away that might not be the case. Also, there are some elevated ground patches surrounding the new bl spawn, perhaps those should be revised slightly so streching upward to the ore and westward toward the gems is easier. As for the second airport- I agree of course that 1 each is more symetrical, but an additional paradrop will affect the gameplay experience- under some 'no eat' arrangements the paradrop is to be left uncaptured- I might favor removing the bottom airport ahead of adding a second one to T.

Ah, Lake Blitzen. I wasn't sure what to do with this one at the beginning. People always say that BL is unfair because of the distance to the gem patch. It would be possible to move the gems closer to BL, however, that would make it unfair for BR. Moving the BL spawn closer to the gems is kind of troublesome too since the ore patch and the derrick will be too far away. Changing the position of the derrick, again, would make it unfair for TL. It's not easy to balance this one, you see.

On pinch point- how did you verify that each side now has exactly the same starting ore? It really appears the Lside has more. Also, I like the idea of placing the new ore on a plateau- but I think it should be 3 cells high, as the sinkholes are all 3 cells deep.

I've collected all ore from R while playing against the AI. Then I restarted the game and collected everything from L. After that I added ore to L until it was exactly the same amount.

I'm interested to see how the changes on dc uprising work- such a nice map but badly imbalanced at the moment..
Hmm, I dont see the gems you've added near the new airport- are they shown on this picture? Regarding the new gems at tl- that spawn is still closest to the rich courtyard and has some gems near their airport, pending the amount of gems to the 2nd airport I might opt to offer tl a smaller amount. Also, TR now seems supremely overpowered- imagine starting gems + gems from 1st airport + gems from tech depot and more gems from the new 2nd airport (if they dont agree to no eat). How can Bl compete?

The new gems are located near the Washington Monument right below the east-west road.
The tech depot is removed so TR has actually less advantages against BL. Engi eating can be a problem of couse, but it would give you an advantage on any map, even on tourney B. I know, the map might not be totally balanced yet, but I feel that with the 2nd airport it's much more enjoyable that in was before. The reason why I gave TL close gems is that it cannot build the first ref near the top airport because of the distance.

Thank you for making these edits- and for your qm videos :) I hope you don't mind my criticism- the changes reflect you gave the issues some thought- I'm just trying to do the same :)

Thank you for your very detailed comment, I really appreciate it. Of course I don't mind your criticism. In fact that's exactly what I was hoping for, since it's the only way how we can get fair maps in the end.

#15 Peer

Peer

    Seal

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:44 PM

Some really nice work!
Removing map bugs is really welcome and I'm agreeing with most things, altough i think it isn't bad if some maps are slightly unbalanced. Some "luck" is part of ra2 too imo.
i think mdz is fine how it is now, and should stay like this. it would hurt my nostalgic heart if this one would be changed in any way.

#16 Seke

Seke

    C&C Tournament Organizer

  • Help Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6692 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 10:26 AM

its not the depot that makes el derado completely unfair, its the middle hill because right side has a ramp to get up it and left side doesnt, i would suggest completely getting rid of the entire middle thing and changing it up a bit, but the other alternative is another ramp up it accessible by left side

#17 DylHole

DylHole

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4864 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:12 AM

in my opinion, i don't think you should have touched any of the standard maps, except for bug/glitch fixes
but good job anyway d:]

#18 ZiGZaG

ZiGZaG

    Commander

  • ST Retirees
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5085 posts
  • Location:Scotland, Glasgow
  • XWIS Name: Freedom

Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:29 AM

The anytown america, pinch point, dc uprising and lake blitzen fixes look very very good they shud replace the ones in qm i understand your point about dmz and the para but personally i think dmz is fine as it is like wwuw says if we make everything perfectly balanced it wont be as fun.

#19 FReQuEnZy

FReQuEnZy

    Retired

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7986 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:34 PM

I like some of the fixes, I might add some of them to the QM renovation.

There are visual glitches and otherwise some oddities that need to be adjusted, besides other imbalance issues.

#20 ExpaNd

ExpaNd

    RanDoMiZer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3828 posts
  • Location:Merrillville, IN
  • XWIS Name: ExpaNd

Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:45 PM

for El Dorado, turn the middle hill into nothing but wall. get rid of the service depot, and back the cliff up that mason is talking about. if you really care lawl

Edited by iAmaLeGeNd, 04 January 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#21 rumblesom

rumblesom

    Captain

  • Strike Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4992 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:46 PM

in my opinion, i don't think you should have touched any of the standard maps, except for bug/glitch fixes
but good job anyway d:]


+1

#22 fir3w0rx

fir3w0rx

    Xwis Was Initially Striketeam

  • XWIS Buddies
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2159 posts
  • Location:Out with your wife
  • XWIS Name: fir3w0rx

Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:43 PM

Westwood made some of the maps imbalanced intentionally, otherwise all the maps would've been symetrical like the "official tournament" maps. But in spite of saying that, I'd still rather certain maps be balanced, such ad LBL, it used to be my favourite map during my one-mapper days.

#23 DylHole

DylHole

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4864 posts

Posted 04 January 2012 - 02:35 PM

but good job anyway d:]

on closer inspection of the maps, i take the above comment back
i don't know wtf you have done, some maps you made even more imbalanced and worst of all, now all the maps look ugleh! D:
well el dorado still looks beautiful

but good try anyway d:]
(this is all my opinion)

#24 xNathanx

xNathanx

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2803 posts
  • Location:Seattle, Washington USA
  • XWIS Name: RaganZin

Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:59 AM

im starting to agree with dylan now it feels like where babying the game too much =S

#25 Edd

Edd

    I LoVe LiZa

  • Bounty Hunters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4105 posts
  • Location:USA
  • XWIS Name: Edd

Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:28 AM

it's about time you guys start figuring out wtf you're doing to the game. Like I said on another topic, the game has been fine for 11 years, lets not ruin it now. Some maps are better unbalanced (to a point) and Asymmetric. New maps are good, don't mess with the old maps besides the glitches/bugs they have.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users