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Engineers, back in fashion?


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#1 tbiol

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:58 PM

I was organizing my thoughts on a reply to an engineer that I put into someone's base, and it made me think of this

There are greatly opposed views on the usage of engineers.

The highly agreed negative usage:
  • Way Pointed
  • Rush (within first 5 minutes of game)
The strong feelings about these, have seem to have ill effects on the usage of engineers overall. It is along these lines of logic that I pose this question.

Do you feel that a late game (6 minutes and up) use of an engineer is any different than the use of a tanya, spy, or yuri?

One could make the argument that any of the other units mentioned above would have an equal or greater effect if successful. Yet, if you use an engineer later in the game, most will flame 'lamer.' I understand that there is a level of frustration about being engi'd, I've experienced it myself, but after years of players packing up their engineer from selling their mcv and using it, I suppose, I've accepted it.

Thoughts?

#2 Chrisev

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:05 PM

For me, an engineer in any building at any time is sad, i really dont like it! But ok... that's the game!
Look this video about an engi rush + build in base after 3 minutes and say me what do you think ? :)

I think that's different than tanya,spy or yuri. That's not the same.. But that's only my opinion
the spy is provided only to go in buildings
tanya is expected to place C4 charges
Yuri is expected to capture enemy buildings
the engineer is expected to capture civilian buildings or repair a building. In the first Red Alert, 4 engineers needed to capture a building, it was better! :pinch:

Edited by Chrisev, 11 December 2011 - 03:12 PM.


#3 Edd

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

For me, an engineer in any building at any time is sad, i really dont like it! But ok... that's the game!
Look this video about an engi rush + build in base after 3 minutes and say me what do you think ? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEdurLAgvlE
I think that's different than tanya,spy or yuri. That's not the same.. But that's only my opinion
the spy is provided only to go in buildings
tanya is expected to place C4 charges
Yuri is expected to capture enemy buildings
the engineer is expected to capture civilian buildings or repair a building. In the first Red Alert, 4 engineers needed to capture a building, it was better! :pinch:


Sorry!

I didn't know I was in 2 of your videos... that's cool.

#4 Seke

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

I was organizing my thoughts on a reply to an engineer that I put into someone's base, and it made me think of this

There are greatly opposed views on the usage of engineers.

The highly agreed negative usage:

  • Way Pointed
  • Rush (within first 5 minutes of game)
The strong feelings about these, have seem to have ill effects on the usage of engineers overall. It is along these lines of logic that I pose this question.

Do you feel that a late game (6 minutes and up) use of an engineer is any different than the use of a tanya, spy, or yuri?

One could make the argument that any of the other units mentioned above would have an equal or greater effect if successful. Yet, if you use an engineer later in the game, most will flame 'lamer.' I understand that there is a level of frustration about being engi'd, I've experienced it myself, but after years of players packing up their engineer from selling their mcv and using it, I suppose, I've accepted it.

Thoughts?


walking an engineer from a sold MCV into ANY building, so long as the engineer is WALKED, is fair imo.

putting an engi into a flak\ifv and taking a building over is NOT okay UNLESS, 1. that player is drastically losing, or 2. there is a base trade going on

spy is never considered a lame to me, it might be "****" though, depending on the game. but definitely not a "lame"

tanya ifv and blowing **** up = lame, tanya going around in the water, then popping up and blowing mcv up = not lame

i dont understand why yuri was part of this debate.

engineer is the first unit you can build and yet not only takes over a building, but does it instantly and only costs $500, i find it hard to believe that you can argue against me when i say its overpowered.

#5 xNathanx

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:01 PM

edd on video enging =D

#6 Olaf

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:39 PM

For me, an engineer in any building at any time is sad, i really dont like it! But ok... that's the game!
Look this video about an engi rush + build in base after 3 minutes and say me what do you think ? :)

I think someone forgot to properly defend his base.

I think that's different than tanya,spy or yuri. That's not the same.. But that's only my opinion
the spy is provided only to go in buildings
tanya is expected to place C4 charges
Yuri is expected to capture enemy buildings
the engineer is expected to capture civilian buildings or repair a building. In the first Red Alert, 4 engineers needed to capture a building, it was better! :pinch:

3...
Yuri's can't capture buildings, can he?
Why do you expect engineers to not capture non-civilian buildings?

#7 ZiGZaG

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:36 PM

I think someone forgot to properly defend his base.

3...
Yuri's can't capture buildings, can he?
Why do you expect engineers to not capture non-civilian buildings?


actually it wasnt always 3 or 4 it depended on the building e.g.. con yard was 5 radar was 3 warfac was 4 :p

Edited by ZigZag, 11 December 2011 - 05:37 PM.


#8 tbiol

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:40 PM

That's right, Yuri cannot destroy buildings, only the spied soviet battle lab guy can, and I can't remember his name.

The point I'm getting at is later, after the initial 3 minutes. Because you should have properly scouted, you should know what's going on, and you should be able to see an engineer being loaded. I'm not saying it doesn't blow, when it happens to you, I'm just saying that I think it should be more of an acceptable practise. AS LONG AS IT's NOT WAY POINTED.

Tanya, announces herself. So you know she's in the game.

tanya ifv and blowing **** up = lame, tanya going around in the water, then popping up and blowing mcv up = not lame


I love this, this is why it is impossible to know what players consider lame. Because I think tanya in an ifv is okay, and wouldn't differentiate the two. Sure, I understand it's the time it takes to react, but as soon as tanya announces herself, I think one needs to be ready.

Because what would your thought be about a tanya in a helicopter, and why?

This goes back to my thoughts on Defcon 6, if I am able to walk my engineer over to your base (from my sole MCV) that's okay in my book, but if I drive it over Right away, then it's not. I don't know why I differentiate the two. Even though I have done both.

#9 Olaf

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:47 PM

actually it wasnt always 3 or 4 it depended on the building e.g.. con yard was 5 radar was 3 warfac was 4 :p

Ah. I just reduced target health to red before capturing with a single engineer.

That's right, Yuri cannot destroy buildings, only the spied soviet battle lab guy can, and I can't remember his name.

Yuri Prime
Maybe IFVs are too fast? It can be quite hard to intercept an IFV.

#10 Seke

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:00 PM

Ah. I just reduced target health to red before capturing with a single engineer.


Yuri Prime
Maybe IFVs are too fast? It can be quite hard to intercept an IFV.


i think ifvs should move slower with infantry in them.

That's right, Yuri cannot destroy buildings, only the spied soviet battle lab guy can, and I can't remember his name.

The point I'm getting at is later, after the initial 3 minutes. Because you should have properly scouted, you should know what's going on, and you should be able to see an engineer being loaded. I'm not saying it doesn't blow, when it happens to you, I'm just saying that I think it should be more of an acceptable practise. AS LONG AS IT's NOT WAY POINTED.

Tanya, announces herself. So you know she's in the game.



I love this, this is why it is impossible to know what players consider lame. Because I think tanya in an ifv is okay, and wouldn't differentiate the two. Sure, I understand it's the time it takes to react, but as soon as tanya announces herself, I think one needs to be ready.

Because what would your thought be about a tanya in a helicopter, and why?

This goes back to my thoughts on Defcon 6, if I am able to walk my engineer over to your base (from my sole MCV) that's okay in my book, but if I drive it over Right away, then it's not. I don't know why I differentiate the two. Even though I have done both.

That's right, Yuri cannot destroy buildings, only the spied soviet battle lab guy can, and I can't remember his name.

The point I'm getting at is later, after the initial 3 minutes. Because you should have properly scouted, you should know what's going on, and you should be able to see an engineer being loaded. I'm not saying it doesn't blow, when it happens to you, I'm just saying that I think it should be more of an acceptable practise. AS LONG AS IT's NOT WAY POINTED.

Tanya, announces herself. So you know she's in the game.



I love this, this is why it is impossible to know what players consider lame. Because I think tanya in an ifv is okay, and wouldn't differentiate the two. Sure, I understand it's the time it takes to react, but as soon as tanya announces herself, I think one needs to be ready.

Because what would your thought be about a tanya in a helicopter, and why?

This goes back to my thoughts on Defcon 6, if I am able to walk my engineer over to your base (from my sole MCV) that's okay in my book, but if I drive it over Right away, then it's not. I don't know why I differentiate the two. Even though I have done both.


got my osunds off so i never hear kirov\demo trucks\tanyas etc.

#11 BeHumble

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:10 PM

hahah classic edd :smoke:

#12 tbiol

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 08:07 PM

Yuri Prime


no, that's not right, that's when you have both allied and soviet, and get a spy in. Not when an allied-only player gets a spy in.....it's a phsycic something that has the ability to detonate a bomb.

and yuri prime has that, single unit, restriction. unless you can remember to build to cloning vat prior to making.

Edited by tbiol, 11 December 2011 - 08:08 PM.


#13 Myheart4u

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:32 PM

I was organizing my thoughts on a reply to an engineer that I put into someone's base, and it made me think of this

There are greatly opposed views on the usage of engineers.

The highly agreed negative usage:

  • Way Pointed
  • Rush (within first 5 minutes of game)
The strong feelings about these, have seem to have ill effects on the usage of engineers overall. It is along these lines of logic that I pose this question.

Do you feel that a late game (6 minutes and up) use of an engineer is any different than the use of a tanya, spy, or yuri?

One could make the argument that any of the other units mentioned above would have an equal or greater effect if successful. Yet, if you use an engineer later in the game, most will flame 'lamer.' I understand that there is a level of frustration about being engi'd, I've experienced it myself, but after years of players packing up their engineer from selling their mcv and using it, I suppose, I've accepted it.

Thoughts?


you cant put spy and engineer in the same catagory.

#14 ExpaNd

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:57 AM

Spies are Only lame to bad players.
Tanyas are just like seals on YR, cry about them but ic is op anyway....

I love how every body says engineer is lame, but they can go ahead and drone a miner at the start of the game "but Tony you can build a service depot if it's droned or just stop the drone" yeah well you can use that same drone to kill a flak or just wall your conyard. I think engineer is lame especially in the first few minutes of the game... 3 minute rule anyone? :D

#15 Seke

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:04 AM

Spies are Only lame to bad players.
Tanyas are just like seals on YR, cry about them but ic is op anyway....

I love how every body says engineer is lame, but they can go ahead and drone a miner at the start of the game "but Tony you can build a service depot if it's droned or just stop the drone" yeah well you can use that same drone to kill a flak or just wall your conyard. I think engineer is lame especially in the first few minutes of the game... 3 minute rule anyone? :D


yah i think droning miners on some maps is **** too, and i agree that iron curtain is also overpowered, what would u suggest soviets have instead tho?

#16 Myheart4u

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:53 AM

yah i think droning miners on some maps is **** too, and i agree that iron curtain is also overpowered, what would u suggest soviets have instead tho?


Its not the ic itself. Its the time that it takes the iron curtain to be usd. Its always going to happen before a chronosphere. Always.

#17 Edd

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:22 AM

:ph34r:

#18 Seke

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:38 AM

gotta admit allies purifier is pretty epic though

#19 Myheart4u

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:55 AM

gotta admit allies purifier is pretty epic though


Allies would be a walk over though without it. Its not like ic..

#20 Seke

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:59 AM

Allies would be a walk over though without it. Its not like ic..


honestly i think chronosphere is pretty good.

#21 tbiol

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:00 AM

you cant put spy and engineer in the same catagory.


I'm not putting the unit in the same category, I'm putting the 'difference maker' of the unit into the same category. Obviously a successful spy is way stronger than a late game engineer, that's why I'm bringing out the idea that a non-rush engineer isn't 'that bad'.

#22 Myheart4u

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:05 AM

I'm not putting the unit in the same category, I'm putting the 'difference maker' of the unit into the same category. Obviously a successful spy is way stronger than a late game engineer, that's why I'm bringing out the idea that a non-rush engineer isn't 'that bad'.


A late game engineer is not effective when all the ore deposits are mined out. And thats the only time...

#23 tbiol

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:07 AM

not effective and not frown upon are not the same thing, and that's the question i'm asking. Do you get upset at an engineer, that is after the first 4 minutes, and not way pointed, in any game.

#24 Myheart4u

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:14 AM

not effective and not frown upon are not the same thing, and that's the question i'm asking. Do you get upset at an engineer, that is after the first 4 minutes, and not way pointed, in any game.


Well yea/

Especially if its a no eat comprimise.

But I get more upset that it has to be resorted to an engi by my opponent. Because lets face it, if the engi does not work. The person is that much more behind in production.

#25 FReQuEnZy

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:26 AM

i think ifvs should move slower with infantry in them.

got my osunds off so i never hear kirov\demo trucks\tanyas etc.


No.

That suddenly makes it lame? Switch your sounds on and quit crying! You have a skill level to uphold. :p

The only think I really consider lame these days is alting at start of the game and waypoint engineers.
Also in some occasions the *****s who drone or try to, a sov miner every game, especially Edd.


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