84 replies to this topic

[HardBall]

And what is your point showing that God killed in the Old Testament?

This was in direct response to XaudiTT's comment "My religion doesn't say IN ANY LINE OF THE BIBLE that we have to kill for God." Unless you think the old testament is no longer part of the Bible my quotes are relevant, end even if you do I can certainly dig up another dozen or so from the new testament as well.

If you believe in God, and believe that he is all powerful, the creator of all things, all knowing, etc. etc., then how can you question anything he does? If you don't believe in God, then surely the stories of him killing anyone are also not real. Why would you have a problem with something that didn't really happen?

That sort of sophistry may impress some people, but it is of-course bs. The fact that god and jesus are fictional characters defined by the old and new testaments only. Does not diminish my disgust for those that want to base a system of morals on the writings in those books. The stories, though untrue, are real in the sense that they exist, are tangible and can be read, studied and discussed. Just as I would oppose any movement that would call the "big bad wolf" from "the three little pigs" a "great moral teacher". I don't have to believe it to oppose it.

That said, I'm sure that most that think they believe in god and jesus don't fully understand what that means. They mostly just believe in a version of those 2 characters that has been, as you say, altered by "the telephone game", but the fact is we have a book that we can refer to. And when reading that book, most "believers" are stricken by shock and disbelief and usually go into a state of deep denial.

Just as most Muslims will tell you the Koran doesn't say to strap bombs on yourself and go blow up innocent people. But a small minority have misinterpreted the message to use it for their own purposes.

Mostly though because they have a different definition of innocent! Though it is true that the koran doesn't specify "bombs" as the way to go, it does specify a large number of reasons to kill a non believer, and most of them apply to many that we in western society would consider to be innocent under rule of modern law. So I would disagree, the koran does call for the death of people that we consider innocent.

And for the record, I think the bible (all religions) is a collection of mostly made-up stories. Man has always tried to explain the unexplainable through the creation of super beings, whether it was a sun god thousands of years ago to explain the strange fireball in the sky, Greek or Roman gods, or the gods of today's religions. Man made God, God didn't make man.

Then we at least agree on that. I just think you severely underestimate the destructive role of religion and the bible in itself and tend too much to put it to human nature.

I'm reminded of a quote:"When left alone, good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, you need religion."

May I suggest some reading/listening: "god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, "the god delusion" by Richard Dawkins and if you'd rather watch or listen than read, the stand up comedy show: "Letting go of god" by Julia Sweeney. If you want I'll even suggest where to get the mp3's of all three.

Edited by HardBall, 13 April 2011 - 07:30 PM.

[HardBall]

P.S. FYI, iHATEusa = bumchops = mrschops

[XaudiTT]

so wait let me get this right....

you are catholic and you say your bible doesn't justify in killing in the name of god? ffs read your bible again, it's called the crusades and the ****ing corrupt pope in the 1200 - 1500 era. not to mention the countless ****ing souls that your religious people forced into their religion because your egotistic religious figures thought that "if you don't believe my god, i will have to kill you."

The bible can be interpreted in many ways. For example the extremism of Jihad make muslim ppl think that they have to kill who doesn't believe in allah... But qumran doesn't explicitely say that, it is a way of taking those words to obtain personal businness (bin laden & co.).
Crusades are a strumentalization of certain terms of bible where a corrupted pope forced ppl to go to war in name of God and everybody knows that this has been a terrible mistake, no doubts.

you also claim to be catholic but say we evolved from apes 4000 years ago? well i have no religious argument with you, because you obviously have no clue what yours is about....

Catholic doesn't means being stupid. Catholic church refuses the theory of evolution but they also refused for years the Galilean description of the earth.. So ? Should I stop beliving in God because the Church does fight vs science ? Obviously no.

as far as population control, the old and the sick don't die off no where near as easy.....doctors pharmaceutical companies ect we have them to thank, nature takes in another way for this, violence, the fact of laughing about the situation is what are you going to do cry for 50 years?

You have a strange way of thinking about evolution but this is not the thread to discuss this. I am not CRYING for that, I am just reporting a very very bad attitude of a stupid player. Probably he is not aware of what happened, probably he thinks it is a sorta of natural selection or other idiocies like that, but anyway a normal ppl wouldn't laugh at that unless he's a kid or he has a strong distorption of the reality or anyway of the humanity (and this is unlinked with religion).

**** happens, and 9/11 is no where near as bad as this radiation leak or the lives lost in some BS war that the USA is in now, which has generated more kills in woman and children than all of 9/11 combined.

yes, it is "as bad as", but the nature of the two acidents are totally different : one was intentional, the other was an accident. I wouldn't ignore this difference.

[HardBall]

My religion doesn't say IN ANY LINE OF THE BIBLE that we have to kill for God.

I wonder if you will now be brave enough to attempt a response to my retort to this ridiculous statement.

Catholic church refuses the theory of evolution

You are confirming my statement that so called "believers" are very often oblivious to the facts of even their own religion.

The catholic church accepted the truth of evolution during the papacy of Pope John Paul II.

[HardBall]

Should I stop beliving in God because the Church does fight vs science? Obviously no.

No, you should stop believing in god because there is no proof whatsoever of its existence and on the contrary a lot of strong arguments against. Furthermore the definition of god changes constantly and most of the time I'm pretty sure you can't even define what it is you believe.

The only definition of the judea-christian god, which seems to be most prevalent consistent definition of our modern time, comes from the bible. A book that has been proven to contain more errors than unanswered statements (and 0 confirm-able truths)...

Furthermore you should ask yourself what you would believe if you had been raised not to or if you had been raised to believe in lets say... Wodan. And how does the self-evident answer to that question influence any possible reason to continue believing.

[XaudiTT]

I wonder if you will now be brave enough to attempt a response to my retort to this ridiculous statement.

I don't care at the words of the bible when they are taken with bad intentions.

You are confirming my statement that so called "believers" are very often oblivious to the facts of even their own religion.

There are believers and believers, it depends on us to choose to believe like an idiot or believe and THINK on what we are believing. And also it is important to reflect if the Church is really following the intentions of God

The catholic church accepted the truth of evolution during the papacy of Pope John Paul II.

No, you should stop believing in god because there is no proof whatsoever of its existence and on the contrary a lot of strong arguments against. Furthermore the definition of god changes constantly and most of the time I'm pretty sure you can't even define what it is you believe.

Bah, I could start telling you about lot of so called miracles that no science was able to explain. Also no scientist is able to explain what was existing before the big bang and who decided to create the initial mass of it... But it's a complicated matter to discuss and this is not the right topic.

Then the Bible is just a book. You can trust in God but not trust on that book. It's simple. And it is stupid, in my opinion , to believe in everything is written in the Bible/qumran/etc.

I would like to separate the stupid believers from the careful believers

Furthermore you should ask yourself what you would believe if you had been raised not to or if you had been raised to believe in lets say... Wodan. And how does the self-evident answer to that question influence any possible reason to continue believing.

Finally a decent point to discuss...

Well, I'd believe in God and I would call it Wodan. We call Him God, others call him Allah others Jahvè, no problem. Question is believing or not.
It's not a sorta of choosing the "best god that fits my life" (sorry for english) , it is just to believe that Someone made everything and someone loves us and tells us that the right way is dominated by love and good actions. Then call it Wodan, but it would be a very nice God imo.

[HardBall]

I don't care at the words of the bible when they are taken with bad intentions.

Taken with bad intentions? I simply stated the books and numbers of verses that contain commandment to kill from god. My intentions do not change the words, and they do not change the fact that your statement that "no line of the bible contains commandments to kill" is plainly and simply FALSE.

You aren't even going to admit that?

There are believers and believers, it depends on us to choose to believe like an idiot or believe and THINK on what we are believing.

There is no such thing as a thinking believer. Thinking is exact opposite of believing. Believing, by definition is the accepting of a statement without question or reason.

Also, you have not responded nor acknowledged your second clear failure to understand your own religion, being the fact that the catholic church accepted the truth of evolution during the papacy of Pope John Paul II.

Bah, I could start telling you about lot of so called miracles that no science was able to explain.

The absence of an explanation for anything is not proof of a god. Also, your inability to understand something does not make it impossible to explain, it just makes it impossible to explain to you. I do understand the implication of the big bang theory and the answer to the questions you stated, but even if I didn't, the fact there is no proven explanation is not an argument to believe in any god.

Then the Bible is just a book. You can trust in God but not trust on that book.

In that case, I hope you will now stop calling yourself catholic or christian. You have made it clear that you don't understand or even accept the basis of that particular faith. This is perfectly within your right obviously, but please be honest enough to correctly identify your faith and what it is you believe.

Finally a decent point to discuss...

Well, I'd believe in God and I would call it Wodan. We call Him God, others call him Allah others Jahvè, no problem. Question is believing or not.
It's not a sorta of choosing the "best god that fits my life" (sorry for english) , it is just to believe that Someone made everything and someone loves us and tells us that the right way is dominated by love and good actions. Then call it Wodan, but it would be a very nice God imo.

This is not correct. Wodan is not a "nice god" and if you were raised to believe that god was a vengeful angry god who will kill you if you don't pray to him every day, than that is what you would believe.

Your reaction to this question combined with your clear ignorance of the bible and the catholic church opens only 2 possibilities.

1 you just believe what your parents (or maybe teachers) told you, irrespective of what that is.
or 2, you simply make up your own religion while you go, which would make you an creator and not a believer.

It is probably a combination of the two. You are a creator, not a believer, of your own religion based loosely on what you have heard from others about religion.

[XaudiTT]

Taken with bad intentions? I simply stated the books and numbers of verses that contain commandment to kill from god. My intentions do not change the words, and they do not change the fact that your statement that "no line of the bible contains commandments to kill" is plainly and simply FALSE.

Again. It's a book, you can understand it as you wish. For example a common way of reading it is to consider "the sword" as "the word of God, the faith" and to consider "to kill" as to "convert, fight". I don't want to re-interpret the bible's link that you posted because I have no time but I must remember that one of the ten commandaments is to not kill... So ?

You aren't even going to admit that?

I wrote a thing that required more than 20 grams to be understood in the correct way... Sorry.

There is no such thing as a thinking believer. Thinking is exact opposite of believing. Believing, by definition is the accepting of a statement without question or reason.

No. Believing in God. Thinking about what Bible and Church say. It's different.

Also, you have not responded nor acknowledged your second clear failure to understand your own religion, being the fact that the catholic church accepted the truth of evolution during the papacy of Pope John Paul II.

Failure ? If one person doesn't know one thing you call it "total failure" ? Your slavery in a so rigid life is making me unhappy.
Then, FYI, the church didn't accept that theory at all, pope John Paul II accepted it as description of the origin of the body of the man but everything is inside his mind is derived from god (and this fights with Darwin & Co.).
So only partially the accepted it and since science accepts it entirely, well, I can't say that Church really accepted it.

The absence of an explanation for anything is not proof of a god. Also, your inability to understand something does not make it impossible to explain, it just makes it impossible to explain to you. I do understand the implication of the big bang theory and the answer to the questions you stated, but even if I didn't, the fact there is no proven explanation is not an argument to believe in any god.

k but who created everything ? And who created him ? There is no science that will tell this.

In that case, I hope you will now stop calling yourself catholic or christian. You have made it clear that you don't understand or even accept the basis of that particular faith. This is perfectly within your right obviously, but please be honest enough to correctly identify your faith and what it is you believe.

Hmmm so ? I am catholic but I prefer to analyze some of its aspects in the way I want. Church is not ok with this ? I don't care but they arem't actually banning me. My basis are catholic anyway, so I am catholic.

This is not correct. Wodan is not a "nice god" and if you were raised to believe that god was a vengeful angry god who will kill you if you don't pray to him every day, than that is what you would believe.

Sure, this could be a good statement if we were in '900 (note, 900, not 1900s). Then the mankind evolves and starts thinking that an angry god "could" exist and starts to NOT pray him and sees that there is no revenge... Wow.
Then that faith will die fastly (see greek gods , lol), leaving space to other faiths that concerns more "good things"

1 you just believe what your parents (or maybe teachers) told you, irrespective of what that is.
or 2, you simply make up your own religion while you go, which would make you an creator and not a believer.

Everyone is influenced by parents and teachers. Then we grow and learn new things and we start to think. Often there is a contrast with religion and thinking imo is helpful to clarify that aspect. So surely I was influenced when I was child but after I started to make my own vision of things.
About making my religion I could agree, yes I am actually making a sorta of religion that suits me... Of course... But why should I follow what Church is commanding ? Is Church God ? No !

It is probably a combination of the two. You are a creator, not a believer, of your own religion based loosely on what you have heard from others about religion.

I am a thinker, I know that is hard for you to understand and you make things black or white. I am not making a religion but I am making a way of understanding SOME of its concepts. You see SOME written in capital letters ? This doesn't mean that I am creating a religion. And also I am not influenced by what ppl say about religions, lmao, my culture is large enough to let me literally ignore what 99% of ppl say, I don't need the help of others , expecially in understanding religion...

[HardBall]

Everyone is influenced by parents and teachers. Then we grow and learn new things and we start to think. Often there is a contrast with religion and thinking imo is helpful to clarify that aspect. So surely I was influenced when I was child but after I started to make my own vision of things.
About making my religion I could agree, yes I am actually making a sorta of religion that suits me... Of course... But why should I follow what Church is commanding ? Is Church God ? No !

You have invented your very own personal religion, but for some reason are unable to accept that. And no matter how you try to justify it, you are NOT a catholic. You do not believe what catholics believe.

You're right than Church is not god... Nothing is god... There is no god.

The fact that there is no explanation that you accept for the existence of the universe is not an argument for god. Inability to find a scientific explanation does not confirm a mystical one.

If you'd like and example. The Salem witch trials condemned witches to death because they couldn't explain the strange things they saw. Later science explained that it was LSD like substance in the mold on the corn they were eating.

The bible says the earth is flat. Fail!
It said the sun turn around it. Fail!
It says disease is caused by daemons. Fail!
It says god created the world in 6 days. Fail!

All that is proven and no sane man will deny that. All the rest religion says will be disproved as well. Just a matter of time. And all that doesn't change that there is 0 proof for anything godly.

With all the different gods that all the different people have invented and modified and personalized, how in the name of sanity you can continue to believe that your own personal hallucination has any validity or truth to it. It is all quite baffling.

Why do you believe? Just because you don't have enough imagination to come up with a different theory about the beginning of the world?

How can you believe an omnipotent god is a good and loving god with all the **** going on? At best he is indifferent to man's suffering, and at worst sadistic. But loving caring and omnipotent... not a chance.

Edited by HardBall, 14 April 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[SauLLL]

@Hardball
If you let me give my opinion if not just ignore it.

I was Deist or sometimes so skeptic that I would consider myself as atheist.

I agree with you when you said many ppl believe without knowledge.

I felt a little irony from you when you said believers should read. read what? atheist articles ? so I would tell you to read the opposite side aswell. There are many books prooving some parts from Bible. The Bible before anything is the history of a people and it was written by men, in the gospel Jesus leaves clear who God is. So you should read the Bible as it was written to you, words from God to you, that's why other interpretaions will contradict.

About miracles, you wont believe it until it happens next to you. (That's why I changed my mind).

Don't take the existing theories as absolute truths, cause they arent.

[HardBall]

I felt a little irony from you when you said believers should read. read what? atheist articles ?

Then you haven't read my post in enough detail. I have remarked quite clearly that they should first and foremost read the bible. Too many people that call themselves christian or catholic never read it cover to cover.

About miracles, you wont believe it until it happens next to you.

I won't, even when it does... Just like I don't believe that David Copperfield can make the statue of liberty disappear, even if he does it in front of my own eyes. Even if I don't have the answer I know there must be an explanation. Even if I don't know what it is.

(That's why I changed my mind).

That is very unfortunate. I'm sure there is a perfectly logical explanation for anything you experienced. There always is.

Don't take the existing theories as absolute truths, cause they arent.

Fair enough. I don't. I reserve the right to be smarter tomorrow. Science will learn more and theories will improve. Religion never does. So for sanity's sake don't take any religious dogma as absolute truths, cause they are not.

Edited by HardBall, 14 April 2011 - 08:23 PM.

[SauLLL]

Well, denying God is also to look for God. So I hope you find Him

[HardBall]

Well, denying God is also to look for God. So I hope you find Him

No it is not. It is trying to eradicate this destructive plague on the world. Trying to bring reason and logic back to modern society and free man from this self inflicted slavery.

[XaudiTT]

You have invented your very own personal religion, but for some reason are unable to accept that.

I didn't invent anything. I am only thinking about some aspects of it. Simple. I cannot explain it anymore.

And no matter how you try to justify it, you are NOT a catholic. You do not believe what catholics believe.

How u can tell that ? When I tried to explain the basics of my decisions you failed... Why should I insist ?

You're right than Church is not god... Nothing is god... There is no god.

Church is not God. STOP. The rest is your opinion and I accept it. Accept mine and it will be fine.

The fact that there is no explanation that you accept for the existence of the universe is not an argument for god. Inability to find a scientific explanation does not confirm a mystical one.

But question is still there... So ? Where is the answer ? I want it, sorry, I cannot stay ignorant, I wanna know !

If you'd like and example. The Salem witch trials condemned witches to death because they couldn't explain the strange things they saw. Later science explained that it was LSD like substance in the mold on the corn they were eating.

k, go and browse internet searching the other millions that are still unexplained.

The bible says the earth is flat. Fail!
It said the sun turn around it. Fail!
It says disease is caused by daemons. Fail!
It says god created the world in 6 days. Fail!

Bible is what god said. Fail !
You have understood my point. Fail !

With all the different gods that all the different people have invented and modified and personalized, how in the name of sanity you can continue to believe that your own personal hallucination has any validity or truth to it. It is all quite baffling.

Cos I wannna. I live in a free country, you too. This is permitted. I do that and it is not against other ppl. 11 september was against ppl FYI.
You can believe in nothing, no problem, I am not arguing on that, so stop panicking my testicles trying to convince me that I am believing in a fool thing plz.

Why do you believe? Just because you don't have enough imagination to come up with a different theory about the beginning of the world?

Again , what theory ?

How can you believe an omnipotent god is a good and loving god with all the **** going on? At best he is indifferent to man's suffering, and at worst sadistic. But loving caring and omnipotent... not a chance.

No no, again you are confusing things. God tells us that the right way is the love. WE must love each others, stop. At the end he will decide our final destination basing on what we did during life.
So if bad things happen, if good things happen, well, it's upon us. He only told us the way, it's our job to follow it or not.
But this is a part of religion and you surely don't agree, it was just to tell you what Catholicism tells because I have seen that your concept of Christian's God is quite weak...

[HardBall]

But question is still there... So ? Where is the answer ? I want it, sorry, I cannot stay ignorant, I wanna know !

But just because you believe an explanation that has no proof whatsoever does not mean you have THE answer. So you must be very frustrated that you still don't know!

Lets say, I were to believe there was a flying spaghetti monster that can create anything he wants by touching thin air and wish it into existence.

You would have no argument at all to say your god is more likely than the flying spaghetti monster. Therefore your god-theory has no more validity either.

k, go and browse internet searching the other millions that are still unexplained.

So... What's your point?

Cos I wannna.

LOL Now you're talking... That is exactly why. You believe because you "wanna". Not because it is true. Thank you for clearing that up.

No no, again you are confusing things. God tells us that the right way is the love.

O really... And how exactly did he tell you that? Not in the bible, not from church... You made that quite clear... So how?

I think you should start accepting that your "faith" is based on nothing at all.

[SauLLL]

O really... And how exactly did he tell you that? Not in the bible, not from church... You made that quite clear... So how?

I think you should start accepting that your "faith" is based on nothing at all.

Man, you are the typical atheist, I say that cause I used to be like you, hating the fact of some1 believes. I know you think yourself intelligent for believing in nothing, but nobody can proove if God exist or not and that is what we call "faith".

Christianity believes that Christ Jesus is God, and He said that "the right way is the love". Btw it is in the Bible.

You are right when you said the Church has sinned much, but It is a gigantic institution, many Popes, bishop condemned people who would later become saints by the own Church. Church helps many ppl around the world for free. But I agree with you, we cant close the eyes and accept anything, we have a brain to be used, so the fact some1 is catholic doesnt mean he has to accept anything that church says, because still it is an institution that represents God, It is made by men of all kinds of character.

If this all was based on nothing at all. Ppl like Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, William Shakespeare, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Neil Armstrong, Benjamin Franklin, Galileu Galilei, Thomas Edison, me and many others must be stupid for you for believing in God.

[HardBall]

Man, you are the typical atheist, I say that cause I used to be like you

Actually, not that is matters, but no I'm not a typical atheist. And certainly not on the bases of your quote of what is a perfectly reasonable question. If someone like mr xauditt doesn't accept the bible and doesn't accept the church, that what is it that he believes, and why. A question I think everyone should be allowed to ask and anyone not able to respond should probably reconsider their position.

And by the way, not that is matters, but I'm an extraordinary anti-theist, and you were never like me.

but nobody can prove if God exist or not and that is what we call "faith".

Indeed. That is what the call "faith". The accepting and believing of something you can not prove and for which there is no reasonable argument. That is something I think everyone agrees on. The question remains, if you can't prove it why do you think it is real?

Christianity believes that Christ Jesus is God, and He said that "the right way is the love". Btw it is in the Bible.

Christianity also believes a lot of other things contradict that, but before going down that path, if you want to discuss theology and scripture, please quote the book and the verse instead of just saying "it is in the bible". WHERE in the bible! Then I can look up the verse in question and discuss the context.

You are right when you said the Church has sinned much

I never discussed this. Don't mix my arguments with those of other users.

If this all was based on nothing at all. Ppl like Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, William Shakespeare, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Neil Armstrong, Benjamin Franklin, Galileu Galilei, Thomas Edison, me and many others must be stupid for you for believing in God.

First of all... Way to go, thinking for yourself there[<- sarcasm]. Citing notable people to forward your argument? Is that really going to be your argument? I believe because Galileo was a Catholic?

And second... You are kidding right... Ben Franklin was opposed to theism and actually attempted to rewrite the bible to remove the mystical elements, Galileo was threatened with death unless he would accept god so I would call on duress, Abraham Lincoln was not a believer, but was a politician. He used religion as a tool. William Shakespeare? really? Have you read macbeth?

Edited by HardBall, 15 April 2011 - 07:09 AM.

[SauLLL]

And by the way, not that is matters, but I'm an extraordinary anti-theist, and you were never like me.

I used to say same thing jk, ok then.

Indeed. That is what the call "faith". The accepting and believing of something you can not prove and for which there is no reasonable argument. That is something I think everyone agrees on. The question remains, if you can't prove it why do you think it is real?

For me, the fact we exist is enough to believe in God. I could cite arguments like: design of the universe, but for me the first reason is that.

Christianity also believes a lot of other things contradict that, but before going down that path, if you want to discuss theology and scripture, please quote the book and the verse instead of just saying "it is in the bible". WHERE in the bible! Then I can look up the verse in question and discuss the context.

It is in any gospel in the bible. I think there shouldnt be any doubt about relate jesus and love even if u dont believe in Jesus or in the bible. So for me it is pointless discuss.

You are kidding right... Ben Franklin was opposed to theism and actually attempted to rewrite the bible to remove the mystical elements, Galilei was threatened with death unless he would accept god so I would call on duress, Abraham Lincoln was not a believer, but was a politician. He used religion as a tool. William Shakespeare? really? Have you read macbeth?

According to wikipedia they were freemasons, first requirements to join it:
1 - Believing in God.
2 - Having a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons

You edited your last post while I was still writing so NO I dont believe because he or she belives, as I said Ive already been on the opposite side and Ive already written the why I believe now.
I just quoted notable people cause as Ive already said before you think yourself intelligent for non believing (or at least more intelligent than Xauditti), when you told him his faith is based on nothing at all you just used different words to call him dumb, and now you are using your sarcasm and aggression in the words to insult our intelligence. When, who are you? a nobody.

Edited by SauLLL, 15 April 2011 - 07:56 AM.

[HardBall]

For me, the fact we exist is enough to believe in God.

"We exist, therefore god exists" That's your argument?

It is in any gospel in the bible. I think there shouldnt be any doubt about relate jesus and love even if u don't believe in Jesus or in the bible.

No doubt? Any gospel?

Why don't you just give a me a quote? If it is so clear, don't fight me on this simple point. Just give me the quote in the bible that you base that assessment on.

According to wikipedia they were freemasons

Ah yes, the infallible membership registry of freemasons from wikipedia. How could I ever doubt that... [<-sarcams again]
Believing everything you read without question is what got you into this mess in the first place, and now you compound that by instantly believing what you read and misinterpret... Again!!

Most freemason lodges are in fact very outspoken anti-clerical. And definitely not in line with Catholicism.

The fact that an organization in the 17th century denounced the church and the bible and turned away from theism in favor of deism is as close to atheism as you could get without being burned at the stake. Quoting freemason members as being theists is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Edited by HardBall, 15 April 2011 - 07:52 AM.

[SauLLL]

Ah yes, the infallible membership registry of freemasons from wikipedia. How could I ever doubt that... [<-sarcams again]
Believing everything you read without question is what got you into this mess in the first place, and now you compound that by instantly believing what you read and misinterpret... Again!!

Most freemason lodges are in fact very outspoken anti-clerical. And definitely not in line with Catholicism.

The fact that an organization in the 17th century denounced the church and the bible and turned away from theism in favor of deism is as close to atheism as you could get without being burned at the stake. Quoting freemason members as being theists is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

You do not have any notion of what you speak.

To join freemason lodge you need to have a religion it is fact!!!

I agree with you for other reasons they are not in line with Catholicism. But most of ppl who joins it has catholicism as religion.

Did they denounce bible ? well to join it you need to make a swearing before a bible.

You dont know what you are talking, they belive in an Architect of the Universe not in God.[irony]

Edited by SauLLL, 15 April 2011 - 08:19 AM.

[HardBall]

You do not have any notion of what you speak.

I think you have it the other way round my friend... All I have stated is fact.

To join freemason lodge you need to have a religion it is fact!!!

No, that is NOT a fact. In the 16th century, under pressure of the catholic church and its inquisition, they wrote in their charter that they had to have a belief in a supreme being, but they did not specify what that means. They did that intentionally.

Besides, there is a big difference between deist and theist and then still along way to religion. I'm sure you know this, but it must have escaped your mind because of your hasty response.

Freemason were founded as a deist organization (not theist, and definitely not catholic) but in fact they were the closest you could get to atheist without being killed, and a lot of well known atheists in the time joined the lodge for the protection it provided from theism and organizaed religion.

But most of ppl who joins it has catholicism as religion.

Absolutely NOT true. Unless you are talking about the counter reactionary catholic lodges that were founded specifically by catholic masons. (a minority)

Did they denounce bible ? well to join it you need to make a swearing before a bible.

Yes they did denounce the bible and every other religious text. They had a pluralistic approach to mysticism, were open to all religions, and had an internal rulebook/law that was secular.

You dont know what you are talking, they belive in an Architect of the Universe not in God.[irony]

Strange that you would put an irony tag behind that. That is the closest to anything true that you have posted yet. Not entirely true though... In fact a deist does not necessarily believe that any supreme being was an "architect" as such, in fact they don't need to believe that this supreme being is even acting consciously. It is even very often not much more than a metaphor.

In any case, I don't have much quarrel with deists. Though I myself find their beliefs odd and unwarranted, they leave me alone for the most part. Theists and religious followers however are a different matter. And if you don't mind I'd like to keep this discussion track.

In fact, the religious convictions of freemasons is not even very relevant to our original discussion, which is that the bible is full of violence and hatred, and that the religions it inspired are a force for bad rather than good.

[Rocketeer]

Plants existed before the Sun and Moon (Genesis 1:11-16)

The Earth is created before the Sun (Genesis 1)
...actually, to just shorten this: The order of events in Genesis 1 is wrong

The Sun and Moon are set in a physical firmament above the Earth (Genesis 1:16-17)

The Moon is a/produces light (Genesis 1:16, Isaiah 13:10)

Global flood (Genesis..mentioned several other times in later books)

Humanity at a time of civilization which would have enabled large scale construction projects shared a single language (Genesis 11)

Diverse language happened instantly rather than gradually (Genesis 11)

The Hebrew population in Egypt somehow goes from dozens to millions in a few hundred years. (Exodus)

Hares and coneys are ruminants (Leviticus 11:5-6)

God's cure for lepers (Leviticus 14:2-52)

Snakebites are cured by a brass serpent on a pole (Numbers 21:8)

Giants (way too many passages Numbers, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, Amos)

Dragons (Deuteronomy 32:33, Psalms 148:7)

The Sun apparently moves and can be made to stand still so that people can sneak attack others at night (Joshua 10:12-13)

The Earth has pillars...I guess instead of being hung it's placed.(1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6,26:11,38:4-6...actually, a lot of places)

Pi = 3(1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2)

Either the Earth stopped rotating and moved backward a bit or the Sun moved backward on its own...well, we know what the Bible says about the relationship between the two. (2 Kings 20:11)

The Earth doesn't move.(1 Chronicles 16:30, Job 38:4-6, Psalms 93:1, 96:10...and a lot of other places where it mentions that the Earth is set on foundations)

People think in their heart (Esther 6:6, Isaiah 10:7)

Ostriches are apparently entirely inattentive parents (Job 39:13-16)

The Sun moves around the Earth (Psalms 19:4-6)

Snails melt (Psalms 58:8)

The Earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Ezekial 7:2)

Lots of fantastical creatures used to exist including satyrs, cockatrices, fiery flying serpents, etc (Isaiah)

The Earth is definitively flat (Daniel 4:10-11, 20)

The stars are tiny objects that can fall out of the sky and be stomped upon (Daniel 8:10)

I love religion lol!!!!!!!!!!!

[AbRoMoV]

9/11 was a government job, watch videos relating to Build 7 WTC and the science behind the towers .

9/11 was unjust and very very very tragic, and should never have happened.

9/11 was just a reason for america + any allies to invade iraq for oil etc.

But statistically 9/11 americans wont like this.

spreading rumours +1

[Bigfatrat]

Can you tell me how much oil the U.S. "took" from Iraq during Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom? No? Well I can tell you...none. In fact, oil and gas prices went through the roof, meaning the U.S., as the world's largest consumer of oil, spent even more money on oil because of the wars. Right now, after the fighting in Libya started, gas prices are at an all time high in the U.S. And just as before, the U.S. isn't "taking" any oil from any of these countries. We are, in fact, spending more money than ever before, continuing to make OPEC nations very, very rich.

You are totally correct. We go over there, spend our money, get our citizens killed, liberated their fields, returned the fields to them, and purchase the oil from them at a price they feel is "just"

[SauLLL]

In fact, the religious convictions of freemasons is not even very relevant to our original discussion, which is that the bible is full of violence and hatred, and that the religions it inspired are a force for bad rather than good.

It makes no sense anymore. We have entered a cycle where I say yes and you say no(talking about freemasons). And yes, it is not relevant, you know exactly how we arrived here so I wont write it again.