70 replies to this topic

[tbiol]

First to the picture, the question being answered is why alt? Because he had me dominated, I didn't see the reason to then alt my structures.

Now, I understand that all is fair in war. However, this is a game....based on the idea of war. Now, I guess I've been waiting for the motivation to do an extended piece on alting. So here goes. The conclusions I draw are my own opinions.

Why is Alting NOT considered a BUG ABUSE?

This is a fine line. Because there are truly 2 forms of alting. The looked down upon version of alting buiildings. And the completely acceptable alting of troops.

ALTING OF STRUCTURES
this has been discussed to almost exhaustion, which I'm hoping I'll complete.

For years people have debated both sides saying:
(I have given some notations for the quotes for known players.)


"alting is how you win games. ppl that whine about it should have never had tanks all up in their **** in the first place " Feb 10
"It is how you win games without honor. " April 10
" it's not such a big trick. It doesn't let you win the game, it only helps you. " Aug 06
"almost every top player agrees on it beeing incredible lame and should be treated as bug abuse and therefore cheating" Aug 06
"it doesn't seem like bug abuse, just an unfair tactic. " Aug 06
"Everyone consider it as a bug abuse, and I am sure if EA patched their games then this would be fixed. " AWAZ Aug 06
"its your own fault for allowing ppl to alt on it... " Aug 06
"part of game no?" Sept 06
"But alting i dont really think is part of the game, its just a totally lame glitch." Sept 06
"do it yourself that will solve all problems" Sept 06 zzattack
"Sorry but pretty good example of someone crying at nothing. " Sept 06 RIZ
"using it to run over the edge of warf / ref aint bug abuse: Sept 06
"if its something i can do, that doesnt involve a trainer or cheat then im going to do it a cm or qm" Sept 06
"is a glitch that gives you an unfair strategy " Sept 06
"it is an abuse of the game which has so far been countenanced (inexplicably) by ST moderators" Sept 06
"I thought the consensus was alt isn't fair. The problem is the admins haven't made it clear." April 10
"alt can help you win very much " April 10 Marsh
"sadly most players that are decent lose to an alter or engineer, but its part of the game. " April 10 Marsh
"i think this alting deal is way overrated." April 10
"there's no justification for alting! Doesn't matter if you have a 'bad spot' " April 10 XXXPrep
"I wish the admins would officially call it cheating. They haven't because there is nothing they can do about it" April 10 Ally


Question 1. If it is cheating, how do you prove it?
This is what I think stops the admin from properly calling alting a bug abuse. A Screen Shot CANNOT be teh only proof. Video would be the only way to completely prove. Because if you drive past and stop there is a possiblity of tanks being on the opening. therefore a video of that player backing away from the opening would show a compliance that they are not TRYING to ALT, or conversely show the obvious intention of alting the structure.

Question 2. What would be the punishment?
I think this would have to be discussed at nauseum as well. My recommendation would be a 2 warns then a ban. 3 strikes. With a 3 month wipe. This would stop habitual alters, and may keep track of accidental.

Question 3. If everyone can do it, why should it be considered a bug abuse?
Unfortunately, there is an imbalance. I reference tanks, because this is the most common way of alting, because if someone does it with a miner they won't hear the end of it, and may have trouble getting games. If a soviet uses three rhinos, their armor is thicker than a grizzly tank therefore taking more friendly fire hits.

Question 4. Why is there a lack of input from the admin on the subject?
That's all I got, i've looked, and it seems like most current admin have weighed in on the topics prior to being made admin.


Alting of troops
Apparently troops are meant to be run over, thus alting troops is the created reasoning to quickly dispense of paras and scouting dogs. This I learned when doing all of this searching. I was ready to make a comparison on how alting troops could be lumped into this.

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[unanswered]

If you have tanks there is no excuse for letting someone get into your base and alt your war, if you have 0 tanks and he has 8 you lose the game anyways, alting is pointless so stop crying.

[tbiol]

If you have tanks there is no excuse for letting someone get into your base and alt your war, if you have 0 tanks and he has 8 you lose the game anyways, alting is pointless so stop crying.

Really that's the best you could come up with.

I noted that the game played was what brought upon the idea of having a discussion.

I am well aware of what happened in this pictured game, I played it. Your snap judgement is completely off base. you don't see the single tank alt of an ore refinery which happened earlier in the game, and the continuing attempts to alt one of the war factories.

Now, if I am to fully dissect your statement. You are saying if a player has tanks there is NO WAY POSSIBLE for his opponent to ALT his war factory. Amazing, no possible way. Thanks for your constructive criticism. I think your name says it all...you have left this topic unanswered. It's been a pleasure.

[nooomercy]

It is only truly 'abuse' if you continously click alt on a factory to prevent tanks/vehicles from coming out. Otherwise it is simply a valid, but lame tactic like waypoint engi.

It is possible to be patched out, but won't be.

[tbiol]

It is only truly 'abuse' if you continously click alt on a factory to prevent tanks/vehicles from coming out. Otherwise it is simply a valid, but lame tactic like waypoint engi.

It is possible to be patched out, but won't be.

Sorry, I've put more thought into this........thus the edit.

Your first sentence: If one was to have multiple war factories the easy solution would be to make an alternate war factory your primary war factory, thus units can freely come out of that one. But this still doesn't compensate for the difference in friendly fire damage. Granted alting for a distinct advantage is generally done early game. My point is what's the difference if they are using it to dam up the war factory or draw friendly fire?


If a soviet uses three rhinos, their armor is thicker than a grizzly tank therefore taking more friendly fire hits.

My point here is that there truly is an IMBALANCE, when tank alting is being used. Being an allied tank will fire more shots into it's own war factory than a soviet tank, thus destroying the war factory sooner.

I'm trying to grasp your meaning for a valid tactic.

having legal efficacy or force; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities
<a valid contract>

2a : well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory>
b : logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>

I'm assuming 2b logically correct, then I'm correct saying there is an imbalance thus making it illogical


I wouldn't compare it to way point engineering. Both factions can effectively, equally perform this (one in ifv and one in flak trak; speeds are comparable as well). if we assume without the use of a trainer means they have properly scouted to reveal the structure they are trying to enter. I insist that you start an additional topic if you'd like to further discuss this.

Edited by tbiol, 17 February 2011 - 05:05 AM.

[nooomercy]

If a tank rolls up onto the porch of your house and other tanks shoot at it is your house gonna take damage? What you alt and how much strength it has is irrelevent. The whole game is 'imbalanced', you need to adjust to tactics. Mirages will shred the tanks with minimal building damage. Or you can sell it. Or engi repair it. Or drone the tanks. Or Chrono them. And so. Don't whine. Adapt.

[unanswered]

If a tank rolls up onto the porch of your house and other tanks shoot at it is your house gonna take damage? What you alt and how much strength it has is irrelevent. The whole game is 'imbalanced', you need to adjust to tactics. Mirages will shred the tanks with minimal building damage. Or you can sell it. Or engi repair it. Or drone the tanks. Or Chrono them. And so. Don't whine. Adapt.

[Curatio]

Its part of the game, but is lame. But the rule goes: If they lame you, lame back harder

[unanswered]

Its part of the game, but is lame. But the rule goes: If they lame you, lame back harder

I love this rule, I engi someone, then the next game they just send 8 tanks straight to my my war factory with alt, then I just go kill them.

[Steve1985]

If you have tanks there is no excuse for letting someone get into your base and alt your war, if you have 0 tanks and he has 8 you lose the game anyways, alting is pointless so stop crying.

Andy your the one that got every1 alting lol, when you came back and started to lame people followed your example coz they saw it a good way to get a lead in a game.

Not complainin coz now for the reason for so nabs that do alt i just use yuri and make them fail!!!!!

[unanswered]

Andy your the one that got every1 alting lol, when you came back and started to lame people followed your example coz they saw it a good way to get a lead in a game.

Not complainin coz now for the reason for so nabs that do alt i just use yuri and make them fail!!!!!

Ey, get some pts on YR so we can QM.

[Steve1985]

Ey, get some pts on YR so we can QM.

How many do i need to get?????

Not looking forward to the alt's and engi's about to come my way but will be fun!!!!

[unanswered]

How many do i need to get?????

Not looking forward to the alt's and engi's about to come my way but will be fun!!!!

I got 600, so like 500.

[Chrisev]

The only player with 500 pts atm on YR is duce, you got more and all others dont have 500 pts lol


ALT is lame style, same as engi ifv rush or other. A good player dont have need to do alting.

[unanswered]

The only player with 500 pts atm on YR is duce, you got more and all others dont have 500 pts lol


ALT is lame style, same as engi ifv rush or other. A good player dont have need to do alting.

Get some pts and we play at YR, or Ra2, im top 10 there also.

[tbiol]

unanswered you quoted nomercy and had no other thoughts. Seems par for the course.

If a tank rolls up onto the porch of your house and other tanks shoot at it is your house gonna take damage?

Why are you asking a question about the exact thing I've just explained, yet using the word house as opposed to a building

What you alt and how much strength it has is irrelevent.

You seem to referring to the strength of the building; the building strength is more than likely exactly the same for both factions
I'm referring to tank strength where there is a differenct.

Mirages will shred the tanks with minimal building damage.

Most alting is done EARLY in game to get an advantage. If done on a small board I'd like to see how you tech up and stop a tank rush.

Or you can sell it.

Yes

Or engi repair it.

Yes

Or drone the tanks.

yes

Or Chrono them.

Look back to mirage answer

Don't whine. Adapt.

I don't see where you are getting whining. It's a platform for a discussion. Thats why there are questions, answers, and opinions.

[tbiol]

Its part of the game, but is lame. But the rule goes: If they lame you, lame back harder

so you are saying that you are okay with someone taking their 1st miner from their refinery and alting your war factory? Because next time you'll do the same thing.

This is very good logic, I wish the world was run this way. i believe the word your looking for is retaliation.

Apparently you and the other two don't seem to grasp the idea of trying to table a discussion using logic. Please edit your posts to stay on topic. and have your dicscussions elsewhere.

[unanswered]

so you are saying that you are okay with someone taking their 1st miner from their refinery and alting your war factory? Because next time you'll do the same thing.

This is very good logic, I wish the world was run this way. i believe the word your looking for is retaliation.

Apparently you and the other two don't seem to grasp the idea of trying to table a discussion using logic. Please edit your posts to stay on topic. and have your dicscussions elsewhere.

If you see him driving his miner to your base you start building another war and sell it when you have a tank ready, gg.

[tbiol]

If you see him driving his miner to your base you start building another war and sell it when you have a tank ready, gg.

This is an example: I'm not looking for game play maneuvering to counter. Simply an example.



please take the time to actually read posts. Perhaps then you'll understand what the meaning/point is.

Please take the time to respond to those posts directed towards you. because you haven't done that yet.

[Seke]

if it is soviet vs allied then if the soviet player alts it is way to his advantage as pills\gis and especially rocketteers hurt buildings far more

[Drasten]

Sorry for the noob question. But what is alting? And how do you do it?

[nooomercy]

It's called scouting. If you see someone sending 2 tanks or a miner toward your base, chances are they are going to alt you, so engage them before they get to your base or be prepared to sell.

And we are discussing it. You see it as a problem, We don't. It's a completely legal tactic, it's just lame. If someone sends a flak of connies with ivan bombs on them next to your war you are going to lose that war. How do address it? KEEP IT AWAY FROM YOUR WAR. Same thing applies here.

This is another giant QQ thread.

Edited by nooomercy, 17 February 2011 - 08:10 PM.

[Seke]

i think flak with ivaned connies is different than alting... but okay, and when there is base trades or vsing france alting is jus too good

[tbiol]

Forgive me if this comes across as a little harsh.

Your posts convey an underlying tone that your acolades/accomplishment in this game gives you a sense of entitlement.

It is this egomaniacal sense of entitlement that makes you feel that your words, thoughts, and (loosely said) opinions are worth their weight in myrrh.

Let me rephrase that, since your reading comprehension seems lackluster at best: Your reasoning is similar to an older brother saying to his younger brother "I'm better at this game, so I'm right."

Now, I can't really say that you are wrong about anything, only because you have actually addressed anything. Instead, you have repeatedly said, and I'm paraphrasing, better tactics are a solution. Don't let tanks into your base.

Now If I follow this line of logic, and apply it to self spying. Don't allow your opponent to tech up. Yet self spying is considered an abuse, and has consequences. This brings me back to square one. I'm trying to address this issue, and hear thoughts about the issue.

There is an imbalance.

You site examples of better scouting, knowing it is coming......Do you acknowledge the FACT that there is an imbalance?

If you had a choice, would you have it be a bannable offense?

These among others are the Ideas, thoughts behind the original post. Open your eyes and read.

And we are discussing it. You see it as a problem, We don't.

It's a completely legal tactic, it's just lame. If someone sends a flak of connies with ivan bombs on them next to your war you are going to lose that war.

How do address it? KEEP IT AWAY FROM YOUR WAR. Same thing applies here.

glad you speak for everyone. I think if you go back to the original post I will have noted that more have seemed to agree with me, than with you.

It's a completely legal tactic: THAT's THE DISCUSSION!!!!!!

Sorry for the noob question. But what is alting? And how do you do it?

You can look it up elsewhere.

Because I'm not adding to it.

I kept it vague for a reason, therefore admin wouldn't lock it up...eventhough that might happen.

i think flak with ivaned connies is different than alting... but okay, and when there is base trades or vsing france alting is jus too good

READ THIS: THIS EQUALS AN IMBALANCE FROM FRIENDLY FIRE.

[zzattack]

i was OBVIOUSLY joking in the quote